Raise a limp-re-raiser with JJ?

[woodguy]

Tim, where is that FAQ??? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Early in a $30 Party SnG

Blinds are 15/30
No reads.

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP limps

I'm right after MP with JJ

Don't want to give a bunch of Ax's a free look at the flop so I raise to 180

Folded around to UTG+1 who raises another 250.

I push my bet bar all the way to ALL IN and then wimp out and call.

Flop comes Axx rainbow.

UTG+1 immediately pushes all in.

I fold.

Should I have re-raised all in PF?
Should I have called on the flop?

I know this play by UTG+1 is often AA/KK, but I have seen alot of strange/poor/pathetic play lately (not including my own /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I'm ok with folding on this flop, but for some reason my gut tells me that I should have pushed PF.

Did I make a mistake PF?

regards,
woodguy

[GoSox]

That early I'm usually not feeling so desperate to push with JJ. He could have raised with AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ and having those early a lot of people try the reraise to let the pot build and then narrow it. This is a definite fold for me.

[woodguy]

GoSox,
You're right.
I should stop posting hands right after I play them.
Looking at this post later, and its a pretty straightforward hand with no major mistakes.

I'll take Jason S's advice and stop posting crap and just post the hands I can't come to a conclusion on after thinking about them for a while.

regards,
woodguy

[Jason Strasser]

Hey Woodguy,

As you can imagine, this situation is very player dependant. But from my experiences at almost all limits, the limp MINIMUM reraise is aces about 80% of the time, and kings the rest. People can limp reraise all-in with a wide variety of hands like AK, 99, etc, but will rarely limp then min raise with anything but a premium pocket pair.

I think you should have a plan going into a hand like that. Use the minimum-raise to your advantage. Play set/fold. I would probably end up check/folding any flop that didn't have a jack. The ace was a great card for you here, because you could almost guarantee that you were behind. But in general, even if this flop was 852, you will be behind a vast majority of the time. I really don't like to go to battle against a standard player who does some sort of opening like this.

One other thing: Your preflop raise is too much. I understand how you'd want to raise more than 3-4x BB with a pocket pair because you want to isolate yourself heads up (or win the blinds), but this is a standard telegraph. Make your standard raise (T100?), and dont PC yourself with a hand like JJ. This whole situation would be even easier if you didn't have to commit so much preflop.

Hope that helped,
-Jason

[Jason Strasser]

What? This post is great.

Don't take my advice that way! This is a question about a hand, not at all any sort of bad beat post like the earlier one.

-Jason

[woodguy]

Jason,
Thanks for the kind words.
I try to only post "interesting hands" or situations in which I don't have a "standard" response and need help on.
I think this post is a little weak, but I appreciate your support just the same.
I too am tired of "I was a 70/30 favorite and lost, what did I do wrong" post.
MLG is right, "cards happen", and if you can't deal with the short term variance, stop playing.

One question about your response though...
You mentioned that I raised too much PF.
In an SnG I my standard raise is 3xBB, until the blinds hit 100/50, then I start raising 2.5xBB (seems just as effective)

In this case I had 3 limpers, so I added 3 more BB's to my raise, should I back that off?

regards,
woodguy

[Jason Strasser]

That rule where you add more BBs per each limper is alright, but I usually have a standard raise with limper(s), and a standard opening raise. I'd open for 90, and regardless of how many limpers, I'd probably make it 125.

However, if this is how you normally open, don't change it. I didn't realize that you had a formula including multiple limpers, which is fine (and I know a lot of players, especially in the MTT forum do this). So don't listen to me, as long as this wasnt a telegraph, or a larger than normal raise to isolate with a PP, its fine.

-Jason

[Eder]

I like reading various strategies with JJ...seems a very difficult hand to play well without losing my ass...