A 'waiting to blast away' hand. Keeping the pot small prelfop.

[bernie]

This is a hand that kind of represents waiting instead of just going for it preflop.

Mucks 10-20 playing like 4-8. Great game especially if you're catching cards. Which i'm not.

UTG raises. Pretty typical player with preflop knowledge. Especially in raising standards. MP cold calls, Button calls, I call in BB with QQ. Button can be aggressive postflop with many hands. He's also shortstacked. I figure this in as a factor of me only calling here. Even if he wasn't shortstacked, i'd be willing to take a shot and just call here with him on my right.

4 to the flop

FLOP: 9 7 3 r

I check, UTG bets as predicted, MP calls, Button raises as predicted, i 3 bet. UTG thinks a bit. He knows how i'm playing and folds. MP coldcalls (mind you, he has some idea as to my holding here) , Button calls.

Turn J

It hits me that that card isn't one i want to see here. I bet, MP raises, Button raises 1/2 bet more all in. I know what MP has.

Rest of the hand is irrelevant. I ended up majorly screwing up and steaming off 3 1/2 BBs when i should've folded to MPs raise on the turn. Nothing to really analyze there. I'm still pretty pissed at myself for doing it.

But do you see how he made a mistake on the flop? This is one way to use an aggro on your right to blast on the flop. If i 3 bet preflop, it could be capped making a big enough pot that i couldn't try and protect on the flop the way i did. Most likely, with my image at that time, the action on the flop may have been a bit tamer.

UTG told me after he knew i had him beat when i c/r. He had TT. Button never showed.

Oh, If you haven't figured it out yet, MP had: <font color="white">JJ </font>

As this hand was being coldcalled to me, I thought of Feeney's explanation of how the makeup of players can affect some options you have in playing a hand from this spot. In that thread, they were talking about AKo and not raising in a blind. This is kind of the same deal, imo. I wish i could remember the name of that thread. Feeney hasn't been that active lately, so a little search may not take much time. (There might have been 2 threads, actually. Close to the same time. I think 1 continued off the other)

comments/thoughts welcome

b

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Bernie,

How would you have played T9s with the flop one of your suit preflop, on the flop flop, and on the turn? Any different?

GoT

[Trix]

If I didn´t 3bet preflop, then I would probably bet the flop here, trying to 3bet either UTG or Button.


AK thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=holdem&amp;Number=625596&amp;PHPSE SSID=&amp;fpart=1#Post625596Post625596)

[MarkD]

There is no way that you can reliably put MP specifically on JJ only on the turn as you imply. You either left out vital information about your read of MP or you are being results oriented. There are other hands he could have that play exactly the same way that you are drawing live against and would be wrong to fold.

I dislike calling pre-flop here as well. Even with the player composition you describe.

[bernie]

Cool. That looks like the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
then I would probably bet the flop here, trying to 3bet either UTG or Button.


[/ QUOTE ]

UTG may very well have just called, but the button would likely have raised. So it could probably be played both ways. Except the button might be more enticed to raise to get me out than if i originally bet out. I also want to use a strong move here to really put pressure on players behind me. A c/r seems to have more effect than just betting out, then 3 betting. They would tend to put me on a much more defined hand this way. If that makes sense.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way that you can reliably put MP specifically on JJ only on the turn as you imply. You either left out vital information about your read of MP or you are being results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not results oriented at all. A 'K' hit the river and i named his hand before he turned it over. I mentioned that he 'knew' how i played. He isn't trying this move with AJ, or 2 pair. He did not 'confidently' call my raise like he was in waiting. He doesn't have AA or KK. I'd have heard from him earlier. His flop coldcall screams of an overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
There are other hands he could have that play exactly the same way that you are drawing live against and would be wrong to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you think he would do this with? Raising the turn on a flop check 3 bettor usually means a pretty strong hand. 2 pair? He wouldn't coldcall the preflop raise with anything that would make the 2 pair. J9s maybe, but that's a stretch. He plays a bit tighter than coldcalling with that. What hands can i redraw on that make sense? None.

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike calling pre-flop here as well. Even with the player composition you describe.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. However, this was a great time to try it.

b

[Munga30]

The preflop play is poor. It's different from the Feeney/Astroglide AK debate (no matter which side you come down on) because QQ is much better than AK. Feeney's whole point was that he could imagine lineups where he could win more and lose less with AK if he waited to see the flop than if he simply default-raised before the flop. QQ has much more equity before the flop than AK and (or is it because) many many many fewer flops would make hero wish he'd waited.

On the button being shortstacked, you want him to put in more before the flop, not less, especially because he's got a hand that's only worth a cold-call. Plus, he can't fold when he misses or punish you when he hits.

I know you don't like absolutes, so I should know better than to post this. Sorry, but I'm weak.

[bernie]

That's a good question. You're forcing me to really think now, dammit! /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Preflop: Im calling.

Flop: hmmm. Since i could bump out a better hand, i might try the same line. I was kind of suprised when UTG folded though. I didn't expect that as much as the players behind him to maybe fold.

The turn i'd likely bet out. With MP raising, i could call if the J wasn't my suit. At first, i don't like it. But i am getting the odds to spike the gutshot at this point. It might be closer with the extra 1/2 bet in there as my implied odds could be limited.

But a c/r on the river would give me my implied odds. I don't see him putting me on a gutshot should it hit, so it could be a pretty easy c/r. But then, ya never know, he would see the 1 card str8 possible.

How would you play it?

b

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Bernie,

I was just pointing out that your could take the same line that you did with your Queens with only a pair of 9's, meaning the turn raise doesn't necessarily always mean you're behind since MP could be raising the turn with a hand like JT. But I wanted to phrase the question in a way that'd make you think. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

GoT

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop play is poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe even abduhl recommends smoothing QQ in here once in awhile. I may also not have the best hand. The pot is decent size, i can maximize my chances to take it down postflop. If the pot gets too big preflop, the postflop mistakes can be negligible as they can chase with a bunch of hands.

Say it's capped preflop. Who isn't calling a 16-1 initial call? Say the action was only 3 bet preflop. 12 sbs in. If i bet out, just about anyone can call here with implied odds. Let's say the action was the same, by the time i 3 bet, the pot is now 19sbs. Which is about 9.5-1. More like 10-1 since the button isn't folding. You can call alot of stuff with that. You're margin of profit from bad calls isn't nearly as wide.

[ QUOTE ]
QQ has much more equity before the flop than AK and (or is it because) many many many fewer flops would make hero wish he'd waited.


[/ QUOTE ]

His AK example doesn't have a preflop raiser in it. It's about limpers. Here, there is an EP raiser, with coldcallers. I could be behind with some of my outs gone.

[ QUOTE ]
On the button being shortstacked, you want him to put in more before the flop, not less,

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't make it all in until the turn. Making it 2 1/2 bets when the action was on him. Post flop, he is drawing slimmer to me than he was preflop. Fewer cards are yet to come. Longer odds for him + more money going in with much less pot odds to chase makes more for me in the longrun.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you don't like absolutes,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is anything but absolute.

b

[bernie]

He wouldn't be putting me on T9s here. He's putting me on a big hand. He isn't raising here with a turned top pair with draw. He isn't that sophisticated. In fact, he'd likely have a hard time calling my 3 bet with JT.

Remember, many opponents don't play or think like us. Especially up here. Though the 2 + 2 contingent is growing a bit. The type of player that could pull this would stand out to me. He isn't one of them.

b

[MAxx]

Bernie, this probably will sound like a really dumb question, but I cannot help but ask. Keep in mind I have not hand any experience at 10/20. And I am assuming MP had a JJ and not 10-8. Do you think that any line you could have taken here (preflop or on this flop) could have made MP fold JJ? I tend not to think so.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that any line you could have taken here (preflop or on this flop) could have made MP fold JJ? I tend not to think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. But that's why he paid a nice price with his flop call. I don't mind his flop call. There is no way we will recoup the amount to make up for the odds he's against.

It's a win-win for me. If he folds, i get 2 free outs from a possible redraw, if he calls, he's making a mistake he can't recoup given the # of players in and the buttons limited stack size.

b

[MAxx]

I agree with you that you are in a win win situation. I agree that sometimes it is correct to smooth call here, but most of the time I would default to blasting away preflop. I think that he made an error here on preflop and on the flop, but I think that he is going to err either way b/c he is not capable of knowing his error either way. I dont really care to what degree your can maximize his error based on your choices of lines, what I am concerned with is getting the most out of my hand when I have the best of it. To me, it was just a matter of pure luck for him on the turn. Either action you made or could have made preflop or on the flop was or would have been proper. I think the only relevant thing in this hand is your turn action. I do not mean to offend you, and if I am missing something here b/c of my ignorance- let me know cuz I am here to learn.

[bernie]

For the MP, you could put his longterm loss on this hand to an hourly rate.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that he made an error here on preflop and on the flop, but I think that he is going to err either way b/c he is not capable of knowing his error either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. He could've 3 bet preflop or raised the flop. However, he might've thought UTG was tighter than normal in this situation. Which is another reason i chose the line i did. If UTG caps the flop or goes into call down mode on my flop 3 bet, i'm in trouble. I was suprised he had TT. However, it was within his realm here. We were both getting hammered on this table and he kept mentioning how i was the only other solid guy who's actually tighter than him there. When getting hammered, this type of guy can tend to tighten up their UTG raising standards.

[ QUOTE ]
what I am concerned with is getting the most out of my hand when I have the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about trying to maximize one's chances of winning it. The pot was big enough that i'd have had no problem taking it right there. Note as an example if a T hit the turn instead of the J.

Btw...I dont think this is the 'only' way to play this hand. I think 3 betting preflop has it's merits too. Normally, i'd likely go that route. Which would change how i played postflop since the action most likely would've changed.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not mean to offend you, and if I am missing something here b/c of my ignorance- let me know cuz I am here to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww. Don't worry about offending me. I just got caught with my head in my ass abit in another thread started by GoT.

You make some good points. I'm just showing a different way of playing it and using the players around you. I also tend to forget some concepts that i haven't used in awhile or never really got the grasp of in the first place.

b

[MAxx]

Ok, Now I see the point of your post. Maximizing the chance of takeing down the pot and avoiding the beat. You successfully elimated the potential UTG beat.

Still, individually it was a win/win with UTG as well. You happened to get him to fold instead of getting somemore inncorrect calls from him. Mission Accomplished- you have displayed an additional reason to just flat call preflop... which does have merrit. I think it is just more important that here you were in a win/win situation, and this choice between two good lines probably will not seriously alter the amount of beats you are going to receive in the long run.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Now I see the point of your post. Maximizing the chance of takeing down the pot and avoiding the beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's it. The pots already getting big, especially when UTG bets out and gets callers.

If UTG had AK, him folding 'could' open up 6 outs to me.

[ QUOTE ]
and this choice between two good lines probably will not seriously alter the amount of beats you are going to receive in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not. But it could save you a pot or so.

Tangent: Sometimes you can bump a player off a better hand this way too. You can use an A on the board to bump KK/QQ and so on off a hand. But that's pretty player dependent. I did a post about that awhile back. Guy finally folded on the river for a bet with his KK.

But let's say for sh*ts and giggles i had AQs. I pull this move and bump the AK out, then turn or river an A for the win. That can be a nice bonus too. I did that once to a guy who just seethed on it for about 20 mins. Of course, he played the flop wrong. He checked it to an LP who bet, i raised my overcards, he folded to 2 bets cold. But you get the idea. That's another thread on it's own. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

[MAxx]

definitely tangent.