ATo in the BB

[dfscott]

My SnG slide continues, and I keep looking for answers. Here's my latest quest:

Is my pre-flop call bad? What about the flop call? I knew I was in trouble when MP called as well.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t2725)
MP (t2281)
Button (t4871)
SB (t2281)
Hero (t1870)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP raises to t300</font>, Button calls t300, SB calls t225, Hero calls t150.

Flop: (t1200) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t1981 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1570 (All-In), MP calls t1981, Button folds.

Turn: (t6732) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t6732) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t6732
<font color="green">Main Pot: t5910 (t5910), between MP, SB and Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t822 (t822), between MP and SB.</font>

[TheDrone]

Given the preflop calls, I'm not calling this all-in with only AT and two callers left to act. If SB had checked to you though, then it's a good time to push.

You certainly were not in desperation mode yet, so it's wiser to avoid calling all-ins without TPTK or better, especially with four seeing the flop. Heads up against a LAG would be one situation where AT might be good enough to call.

[bazooka_joe]

I think your preflop call was loose. Your call on flop borders on suicidal in my opinion.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your preflop call was loose. Your call on flop borders on suicidal in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've swung from way too tight to way too loose. I can't seem to find the happy medium.

What sort of hand am I looking for in order to call here? 2-pair or better?

[Eder]

In this spot with callers I would fold unless you hold something to come over the top with...calling is committing you to an expensive pot holding a crummy hand for multi way

[fnurt]

Investing 150 preflop is no big deal, but on the flop you have two problems, the all-in better and the preflop raiser who is yet to act.

I don't think it is a no-brainer but I would get out of the way.

[patrick dicaprio]

my thought is that preflop if you cant push in here you probably shouldnt call a raise. you have a poor multiway hand here. on the flop you should almost never call all in with TPGK. compare to pushing all in versus calling.

looking at it in retrospect is easy. if i was in the heat of battle i am not sure that i wouldnt have done the same as you.

Pat

[SeppDeitrich]

with all this action before it gets to you this is an automuck. as a rule of thumb if the pot is raised and multi way you need AT LEAST AK to proceed, the only hands i call in your spot are ak, aa,kk,qq,jj,tt though i would re raise all in if my hand was either aa or kk

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
with all this action before it gets to you this is an automuck. as a rule of thumb if the pot is raised and multi way you need AT LEAST AK to proceed, the only hands i call in your spot are ak, aa,kk,qq,jj,tt though i would re raise all in if my hand was either aa or kk

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is already laying him 7-1 not including any implied odds. Surely hands worse than AK like those odds...

[SeppDeitrich]

wrong! you are setting yourself up when you do flop something you are calling with a hand thet will not be a winner unless you flop 2 pair or better to it that's just no good

[SeppDeitrich]

the problem with this hand is that you're notconsidering the action when you make your 2 calls. before the flop the call would be fine heads up, but not multi way. avoid raised multi way pots like the plague unless you have the goods. it's fine to be a little looser in spots where it's heads up, or when there is no raise, but in these spots you still have to be carefull after the flop.

your flop call would also be fine heads up, but not here. Gl in your future games.

[fnurt]

You are right that ATo is a trap hand, but your assertion that you need AK or better to continue is just plain wrong. JTs or any other suited connector, for example, would be a no-brainer call with these odds.

[SeppDeitrich]

maybe aqs as well, or possibly a drawing hand like a small pair, but the fact is that you have avaoid making an expensive second best hand here.

[gergery]

I fold that preflop without question. You do not want to be playing ATo vs. 3 opponents. Are the chances better than 50% than MP has AA-TT or AK-AJ? I think definitely yes, and you are dominated. You only can like a Txx flop and even then might be beat, and you aren’t getting enough implied odds to pin hopes on two pair or trips (since two pair happens 1 in 48 times and you’re calling 150 to win his stack 4800, or 32x).

I hate the all-in call on the flop, as you are very likely up against a better Ace. I don’t see a flush draw semibluffing this either because of the likelihood that an ace is out and will call.

I call with any pocket pair hoping to hit a set, or mid-hi suited connecters looking for straights/flushes, AK, and maybe AQs.

Just the way I’d play it.

--Greg

[Jason Strasser]

Dfscott,

Here is my opinion, which is along the same lines Fnurt is thinking.

Preflop, good players will make this call. I don't care what everyone else is saying, the odds are good enough where you could flop an extremely good hand with amazing odds from the BB.

They are also good players, because top pair no kicker is an easy muck in a multi-way pot. ATo is only dangerous if you make it dangerous. You are looking for flops like TTJ, AT3, etc. And you have the correct odds, counting implied odds, to make this type of call preflop.

I'd prefer to make this hand with 65s then ATo, simply because there are more flops that will give you great made hands.

The way you played the hand, your call is simply awful for reasons described. Hope this helps,
-Jason

[dfscott]

Thanks for the frank response, Jason.

I think I'm still not "getting it". I'm an decent limit player (averaging about 5BB/100 in the micros over 20K hands), but I just don't get the hang of NL. I've read AleoMagus' "beating the 10+1 post," TPFAP and SS and now someone has suggested Ciaffone's book.

But I'm going to keep plugging and posting as long as you'll put up with me (and I make more money at limit than I lose at NL /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Hopefully the light will come on soon.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
wrong! you are setting yourself up when you do flop something you are calling with a hand thet will not be a winner unless you flop 2 pair or better to it that's just no good

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo can win in many ways without hitting 2-pair. ATo often wins when the flop looks like QT6. You don't need to be comfortable to win.

The problem here is the action so far and the hero's position. That the SB bet into the preflop raiser on an ace-high flop shows a lot of strength. I can't think of a hand with which I would call a raise and then bet into a PFR + 2 callers on an ace-high flop that would not beat ATo. I've seen it done, but even if the hero is ahead of the SB, the hero may be behind the PFR or the other caller. If the hero is behind, there are few outs, so I'd fold.

[gergery]

Jason,

I can only hope to be as good as you one day, but I have to say I disagree here.

You’ll pick up
a straight on the flop 0.32% of time
2 pair 2.02% of time
Trips 1.35% of time

Added up its 3.69%, giving 27:1 for hitting one of those 3 hands, meaning your T150 call needs to pick up T4065 each time you hit to make it worthwhile. Since the button only has 4871, that’s only implied odds of 35:1, not much overlay on your 27:1 odds of hitting. When you hit, you need the button getting a second best hand he’ll be willing to go all in on close to 83% of the time (4065/4871), or some combination of 2+ players getting there, and their second best hand needs to not improve to beat you.

If the blinds were half of what they are or your opponents stacks were deeper, then I’d agree calling is good. But the price of calling vs. the implied odds gained doesn’t justify a call based on hitting one of those hands. You have to be banking on significant value from a Txx flop to make this a good call.

And for the record, I don’t claim to be a good player
/images/graemlins/wink.gif--Greg

[Jason Strasser]

What about the times when you arent up another ace and the flop comes ace high and goes check check check, then you bet the turn and pick up the pot? That can happen too sometimes... Add up the value for the occasional pot taken down by Txx, and then it it close?

Marginal at best I suppose.

Thanks for doing the math though, I guess it's closer to marginal. I also suppose a hand like 56s is a much clearer call here. I still make this call because I consider myself a disciplined postflop player, and I have convinced myself that I profit from this call.

Another point to consider, winning a huge pot with a perfect flop will really increase your chances of getting deep into the money, while losing a BB wont hurt your chances too much (although it definitely does have an impact).

I appreciate the time you took to do the math,
-Jason

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the times when you arent up another ace and the flop comes ace high and goes check check check, then you bet the turn and pick up the pot? That can happen too sometimes... Add up the value for the occasional pot taken down by Txx, and then it it close?

Marginal at best I suppose.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or in fact when you pick up a second pair/flush/straight/trips etc on the turn/river because it's been checked. Or you pick up a flush/straight draw on the flop, bet in to it and take it down, etc etc.

I think there's loads more ways to win the hand, and I think you're right that it's profitable.