Tough 1st Level Hand

[AtlBrvs4Life]

I'm in the middle of a bad streak and trying to anazlyze my play. What does everyone think about this hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 (t310)
MP3 (t760)
CO (t1555)
<font color="C00000">AtlBrvs4Life (t770)</font>
SB (t785)
BB (t815)
UTG (t695)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t770)
<font color="C00000">MP1 (t740)</font>

Preflop: AtlBrvs4Life is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls t15, <font color="CC3333">AtlBrvs4Life raises to t75</font>, SB calls t65, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t60, CO calls t60.

Flop: (t330) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets t30</font>, <font color="CC3333">AtlBrvs4Life raises to t350</font>, SB folds, MP1 calls t350, CO folds.

Turn: (t1060) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t315 (All-In)</font>, AtlBrvs4Life calls t315.

River: (t1690) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1690
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1690 (t1690), between AtlBrvs4Life and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (t1690).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows Ad 6c (flush, ace high).
AtlBrvs4Life shows Kc Kd (flush, king high).
Outcome: MP1 wins t1690. </font>

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Amazingly, I came back to win this tournament about 10 minutes ago. I was down to 30 after this hand. I quadrupled up with Q10, then the next hand got KK and quadrupled up again. Then i flopped bottom two pair in BB and lost most of my stack when it was counterfeited on the river. Worked my way back up again with the help of very nice cards and won the tournament. Definately the best comeback I have ever had.

[Potowame]

First, by the action in the hand I would ask my self what this guy was calling my bets with. If you felt that this player would call you with a Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif high flush draw on that flop, well then the turn call was okay. Myself with a preflop raise, and a call by this player preflop, the call on the flop, and the push on the turn, me holding the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif about a 80%+ that he has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. would I have layed it down, more than likly not. But that is where I am trying to improve my game also, by making these tough lay downs to LAG's that chase to the river.
Thats one of those hands you think I should've just pushed preflop and won the limp money /images/graemlins/frown.gif. Which sometimes from the button is a good play, looks like a move, and you will get some lose calls when theres still ten left. Plus, it takes away the guess work with AA,KK. IMO

[bazooka_joe]

I agree...push the hand preflop and be content with a small win as well as the off-chance that someone takes you up on it...You don't want to give anyone a cheap look at the flop with KK

[Peter Harris]

preflop is fine. don't listen to the pushers. you could choose to raise it higher given the limpers, you'd like it down to one or two with hands like AJ, AQ, underpairs.

The flop raise is fine.

The turn is dicky, i mean, they're quite likely given PFR to hold an A, and which A will they push with??

I'd be inclined to call here and see the ace, and smack myself for not folding. Like you.

In all, PF and flop fine, but you can consider folding 2nd nuts here to a player with marbles.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[fnurt]

I would play it the same way as you did. You made a smart raise on the flop, he made a loose call, unfortunately he got there.

The preflop raise is a little small with 3 limpers already in, but the people telling you to push are going too far in the opposite direction.

[patrick dicaprio]

i usually push with an overpair and a fourflush on the flop. but i know why you didnt because the blinds are still low. other than that i dont think you did anything wrong, i dont see how you can get away from this hand unless you know that your opponent wouldnt push without a nut flush. and i dont see how you could know that.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont see how you can win consistently if you play so conservatively as to push here and not try to win some chips.

Pat

[Potowame]

I really wasn't saying that I push this hand everytime. What I was saying is that I will from the button with three limpers from time to time, as change up.

[PrayingMantis]

I'd raise somewhat more PF, and a raise all-in on this flop is definitely a better way than a raise to 350, and a call of 315 once the 4th diamond hits. Many players will not be able to lay down their nut-flush-draws even to a push, so you force them into a bigger mistake than what you did, and you are certainly avoiding bad calls, in terms of FTOP. It is short-stacks NL: if you raise to ~300 on the flop, and get a call, the pot is more than 1000, and you both have just a little more than 300 each. These kinds of spots should be avoided, IMO.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

I'll keep the pushing on the flop subject in mind. Also, I thought a 5xBB raise was fine with limpers behind.

[PrayingMantis]

Regarding the push on the flop, as opposed to a pot-sized bet:

You are forgetting stacks when you think like that. Look at how the hand was played: OK, of course you cut his odds, but he still called you, and then YOU made a bad call, because you figured the pot is too big, he might not have the NUT-flush, etc. With stacks that short, a pot sized bet that leaves you with almost no room to manouver, is worse than a simple push. And again: most chances your opponent will call another bet on the turn, however - if YOU are willing to call HIS bet on the turn once the diamond hits (and this is exactly what you did), you should definitely push to begin with, on the flop.

With much deeper stacks, this hand could be played very differently. However, this is not the case in Party's low-limit SNGs (and in the higher as well).

Edit: I've noticed you've edited the post I'm replying to here, so anyway, this is a reply to what you first wrote there.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Yea I edited it after reading your reply directly above it and realizing I was wrong. Thanks for the help man.

[gergery]

Usually it’s you giving me advice, so take this for what its worth:

1. The preflop raise was too small. I think you want 1-2 callers. You offered the next caller better than 2:1 on a hand he already likes enough to call with. I raise to 100-125 here. If they put you on a big pair that you are willing to go to the mat with, then you are giving them implied odds that are too good with any lower pair.

2. Pushing preflop with KK is insanity and gives up way too much EV. You WANT a caller.

3. I like the flop raise to make the singleton diamond pay to draw. I might raise more, as the A or Q of diamonds is likely to call you anyway, and the Ace of diamonds which you fear most has 10 outs twice to beat you so is correct to call your bet with implied odds.

4. I am very leery of your turn call. People will play any ace, and once the 4th diamond hits you have to strongly suspect the A is out, or else what would he just call the flop and then bet the turn on? He’d have to be pretty bad to do this with 9 high, so you’re putting him on KxQd or QdJx specifically, instead of AdXx, where X could legitimately be K-7 in these early stages with bad players.

5. Sadly, I probably make a crying call as well here with an ugly feeling in my stomach. Bad luck, my friend, that he hit a 10-outer on the turn

--Greg

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Alright, so I have to raise more preflop in the early rounds with limpers behind. I guess the consensus is 6-8xBB raise. My call on the turn was part frustration, and part a feeling that if he was bad enough to call me with the draw, he could be bad enough to call me with a lower flush draw such as the queen or jack of diamonds. I was also getting 4:1 on the call.