Trying out MTTs... learning tools?

[NNH]

Hello all,

I am mostly a SNG player, and like to venture over to the MTT forums occasionally. I've started playing some super low buy-in tourneys (1500+ players). My best finish was in a 10+1 rebuy where I finished slightly outside the money.

For a MTT beginner, would you guys recommend me purchasing Wilson's Tournament Hold Em? I have all the recommended books, but just need a lot more experience. Is that a good option for me? Thanks.

[NNH]

bump

[ilya]

I don't think you need a book. Just search the MTT forum here for meaty threads, especially once that include posts by players like Fossilman.
I also found this primer helpful, although I don't really refer to it anymore:
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/Papers/no-limit-tnmt-primer.html

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all,

I am mostly a SNG player, and like to venture over to the MTT forums occasionally. I've started playing some super low buy-in tourneys (1500+ players). My best finish was in a 10+1 rebuy where I finished slightly outside the money.

For a MTT beginner, would you guys recommend me purchasing Wilson's Tournament Hold Em? I have all the recommended books, but just need a lot more experience. Is that a good option for me? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play SNGs the majority of the time, too. i've been looking for a good no limit tourney software also to get more serious practice playing bigger field MTTs. i've cashed in 4 MTTs with my best finish being 14th in a Stars
$10 + $1 rebuy and i made it to one final table in a 500 FPP satellite to the Stars $250,000 Guaranteed event. i still feel i need alot more exposure to the MTT environment because i don't feel completely comfortable in them despite some success but i'm not necessarily willing to PAY to play in them. i hear Wilson's Tourney version is not all that good. i hear Acespades has a tourney version where the computer AI players are better than Wilson's but most of what i've seen points to Acespades being suspect too (and their more expensive).

DD Poker has a new NL Tournament software out that's way cheaper than both and the word is the AI is pretty good. i also here it's selling pretty well, probably because of it's inexpensiveness compared to Wilson and Acespades. i'm thinking about getting it but i'm trying to find out more about HOW GOOD and HOW REALISTIC it's AI is when it comes to game play.

[daveymck]

What is working for me is playing lower buy ins on smaller sites with less runners some under a hundred and some on another site with 3-400 runners, I feel for me it gets experince of all the stages of the tournie and as last 2-3 hours max can get a few in each night. Downside is that you are not getting much in prizes (I just won a $5 and got $138) but I hope I am paying for my education that will pay off months down the line, also I am hitting the money relatively often so is lower variance.

Others advocate playing the small buy ins like you are and learn to build a stack as there as there is a higher percentage of poorer players and obviously the pay off is bigger.

Take a look at some freerolls as well, poeple seem to be saying that the one on pokerroom is a decent bet also I think the gaming club have freerolls as well.

Personally I suspect that playing tournies against people and posting hands here for analysis will be better for your game than wilson software but others that have used it may know better.

[NNH]

Thanks for the link ilya. I'm sure it'll give me some good groundwork.

Desdia, I see you posting in the SNG forums all the time. Congrats on the money finishes. What do you feel is the biggest difference between SNG's and MTT? I have trouble w/ chip management. If I'm below average in chips, I feel like I start getting worried and desperate (even though I still have 20x the small blind). I think I'm going to stick to playing low buyins and working out the kinks there.

Davey, that's exactly the types of tournies I'm looking for. I'm sure the education is well worth the smaller payouts. What sites are you playing on mostly?

[daveymck]

Playing Victor Chandler/Golden Palace in the main, they have $3 and $5 tournies and some other guarenteed $1/$10 rebuys that generally have good overlay.

[SossMan]

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I have trouble w/ chip management. If I'm below average in chips, I feel like I start getting worried and desperate (even though I still have 20x the small blind).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this tends to be one of the biggest mistakes that I see people on hear make all the time. For me, average chip count has zero impact on my decisions. I think a far more important calculation is the blind/stack ratio of you and the others at your table.

[MLG]

I think the different reactions to average chip count come from playing live vs. online. I think it can be useful to monitor the average as long as you are not goverened by it. Instead try using 1/2 average as more a benchmark. If you are within about 1 double-up of average you have no reason to rush things. If you are not within 1 double-up of average, and have between 10x-20x you should certainly not be getting wreckless but I might start to look for a bit of a gambling situation. Obviously below 10x is all-in or fold.

[SossMan]

Why does it matter at all what the average chip count is in the whole tournament? Why should this affect your play at all?
I think constantly looking at average chip count tends to make people obsess about getting their stack "at least six inches long". I think some dude 4 tables over that has a "12 incher" should have little relevance until he gets moved to your table (girlfriend).
Obviously, as the tables get fewer, and ultimately, the final table, this becomes more relevant. But when there are still 5+ tables, I can't see how this could really affect your decision making.

[MLG]

I actually think it impacts the later stages of a tournament in the opposite way. If i only have 6x and the average in the tourney is 11x, I'm less likely to try to gamble to double-up (say call all-in with 77 from a probable steal raise) if the blinds are 11x than I am if the blinds are 30x and I'm gonna need to double a couple of times to really get back in the hunt.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think it impacts the later stages of a tournament in the opposite way. If i only have 6x and the average in the tourney is 11x, I'm less likely to try to gamble to double-up (say call all-in with 77 from a probable steal raise) if the blinds are 11x than I am if the blinds are 30x and I'm gonna need to double a couple of times to really get back in the hunt.

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I never said how it affects me, just that it only affects me when the tables get short, and even then only because the players who are influencing the avg. chip count the most are likely either already at my table, or are soon going to be at my table. I can't see how if I have a certain sized stack with at a certain blind level would should change the way I play a hand based on if I was below, at, or above the "average chip stack" (assuming I'm still fairly far off the final table....and even then I think there are usually bigger overriding factors).
To me it's like buying a car based on the passenger seat heater....it's nice to have, but there are far more important things to consider.

[MLG]

I see what your saying. I agree that it shouldn't be an overriding factor, but its nice to know, and I think a useful (if only in a small way) tool at bubble time and beyond. Far from the money, if you never looked at it you wouldn't be giving away any edge ever.