QTs, evaluate my play, should I just muck this PF?

[RustyCJ]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero ($50)</font>
MP1 ($24.60)
MP2 ($45.27)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($35.28)
Button ($21)
<font color="C00000">SB ($32.50)</font>
BB ($49.60)
UTG ($68.63)
UTG+1 ($18.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls $0, BB calls $0,75,50.

Flop: ($3) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($7) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $5</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to $29.5 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $19.50.

River: ($66) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $66
<font color="green">Main Pot: $66, between Hero and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero ($66).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Ts Ah (high card, ace).
Hero shows Qh Th (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $66. </font>

[razor]

I'd play QTs if I'm fairly sure I can see the flop for cheap. As a general rule I despise min-raises, although you can't really raise more with QTs and a min-raise does get a bit of money in the pot... I'd just limp though.

If you think you'll get paid off than calling the flop bet is probably ok.

As mentioned earlier I don't much like min-raises, if I had a stronger hand here I'd probably min-raise as I want to get more money in the pot and I thought the other player would fold to a larger raise, but with TP ok kicker I'd raise to $15-$20 and not mind if he folds.

Of course, as evidenced here, some players get a little frisky with their draws... something about doubling up 1 in 11 times puts a little extra spring in their step. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RustyCJ]

This just looked like a pretty raggedy board, figured he probably wasn't betting with much, figured a Q and any heart would probably win it for me. I was probably going to muck it depending on the turn and his bet.

[JrJordan]

Preflop: Ugh. I don't like this hand at all. You're playing a suited one gapper with very bad position. It's possible I would limp with this if I was in late position and felt I could buy the button later if I need to draw. If you HAVE to play this hand, do not minraise. There's no point to a minraise here (in fact, there is almost never a good reason to min raise). It barely builds the pot and everyone knows you have a hand, although in this case I guess in builds some sort of deception because your hand is not that good.

Flop: Wow, somehow your minraise bought you the position you wanted. You've got a decent flush draw with a runner runner straight draw. I'd prefer to raise the SB here, probably to about $6 or $7. A few things might happen. One, he folds and you take a small pot. Two, he calls because he is scared that you may be ahead. Then if you miss the flush draw on the river, he will most likely check to you and then you get a free look at the river card as well. Lastly, he may reraise you huge because he has a monster. In this case if takes away your odds to draw to the flush and you can safely fold having only lost $6 instead of the amount you could lose calling him down to the river. Raising these draws with position is usally a plus EV move.

Turn: Well, you've got top pair now, but the problem is that you really have no idea how good it is. EP bets out again for a little under the pot. He's not showing any weakness on the flop nor turn. Next time, define is hand earlier. Either a bigger raise PF or a raise on the turn will do this for you. Why the minraise here? The only reason I would consider a minraise is see if I can keep the pot small enough and get to the river without pot committing myself. After your minraise, he pushes all in. Unless he's a maniac, it looks like he can beat top pair right now. Lets look at your outs to see if you have odds to call:
9 hearts for the flush, 2 queens for trips, and 3 tens for two pair. 14 possible outs, or around a 30% of flopping on the river. The pot has around $47 coming to you, with you needing to call $19.50. You're getting a little less than 2.5:1 for pot odds. This is close to the 3:1 you need, but not close enough. Likewise, you don't know how clean your outs are right now. If he has a set, then your two pair, trip outs, and paired board card for the flush no longer win for you. That means you could be drawing to 8 outs. If he's an aggressive player, he could have a higer flush draw, in which case you're all but dominated. I think you have to fold this hand to the all in. Tough, but could be a lot easier if you define is hand earlier.

I don't mean to be harsh. Just trying to help improve. Let me know if you have any questions or follow ups.

[JrJordan]

Wow, just looked at the results. I'll add a disclaimer to my previous post. My comments only apply to a rational opponent. This guy is just a freakin idiot. I guess I owe you a "good read" comment. Still don't like playing that hand PF though.

[fireman664]

not even a close one, fold it preflop.

[RustyCJ]

Don't worry about being harsh, I'm a newb to NL, its ok, I need criticism.

I was pretty sure I played it ugly, but I can't always find the error of my play.

The way this guy played was the way the whole table was playing.

[Leo Bello]

Simply put, if u had a better opposition, you could have lost a lot of money. The guy trying to force an A high is really dumb.
Next time, to play this hand pre-flop, limp with it. You can lose a lot of money this way, since this hand is not aiming for the nuts in any situation.

[cornell2005]

hey rusty

the min raise pf is something you should stop in general at these stakes. min raising with q10s is horrible. either you are trying to steal, or you are trying to catch a flop. by min raising, you are strangly trying to build a pot and keep people in. q10s is a horrible hand for you to have these goals.

while learning, just muck q10, and less than JK probably. as you progress, you will learn to play other hands in more situations ect.

[RustyCJ]

yep this was my first night of playing $25 NL at Party. I'd heard the games were horrible and wanted to give it a try, I pretty much avoid these kinds of hands now unless I have 2-3 limpers in front of me and I am near the button.

I hate playing offsuit hands, offsuit connectors feel even worse in NL than limit.

I have 600+ hands in Pokertracker now, my VP$IP is 19% with a PFR of 10%.

I generally only limp with suited aces or suited connectors (76 or better) or 1 gaps (J9 or better) when I have 2-3 previous callers and I'm near the button. I will also limp with almost any PP from nearly any position.

So far I feel at the Party $25 games this is probably ok. The games are very soft and much of the play is very passive and weak/tight.