Best Way to Learn No Limit?

[sthief09]

I've been playing limit hold'em for a while now. I have a solid background in the game, and I like to think that I have a pretty good (but not great) understanding of the game and its intricacies, but I'm getting a little bored of it, so I've been trying to learn some new games. The NL cash games seem to be the most profitable games around these days, so I'm interested in learning. My question is how to go about getting good at them.

What I'm looking for is:
What games to play and where (for instance, starting at the Party NL25 games)
What books to read?
The biggest differences between limit and no limit (like AK not being such a monster anymore).

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Rah]

Get a copy of Pot Limit & No-Limit Poker. Then you might want to try out some Prima site, where there are 5$ buyins which are great for learning.

[Sponger15SB]

st - judging from some of your posts i am guessing you are reasonably good player, i wouldn't be worried that you would jump into NL and lose a ton. If you've got $25 (plus backup money, obviously) around, just jump into a game at party poker, if you aren't stupid, you'll start to pick up the game rather quickly, search around on the NL forums for like a "beginners guide" as it has been discussed before. I was a limit player, and in the past 4 months i've barely played it (with the exception of B&M, where low limit games are the easier things in the history of poker), anways, the point is this: winning limit players shouldn't be as worried as they think, you just gotta make a leap and you'll be fine.

[Leo Bello]

Best way to learn? Playing.
Where to begin, depends on your bankroll, but I guess since you already have some experience, beginning at 25 buy-in games won´t hurt you all that much. No need to go to 5 dollars buy-ins.
Reading Pot-limit and No-limit, Reuben and Ciaffone, will give you good insights, cause he decribes the key differences between the limit and big bet (pot and no-limit), in terms of how to think about a stack of chips, how much to bet, which hands to go and so on.
And I don´t need to say about 2+2, cause you already a long time poster, and know that u can find many usefull links around.

[sthief09]

Anyone have any "must-read" threads on NL ring games? Thanks for all your responses. I'll go pick up a copy of NL-PL hold'em today.

[Ghazban]

The biggest difference I noticed when I switched from limit to no-limit was that the math gets a bit more complicated. In limit, you can check/call, raise, or fold which gives opponents a fairly limited range of pot odds. In no-limit, you can decide exactly what odds you want to give your opponents to try and outdraw you (and similarly, they can make drawing extremely expensive for you). Knowing how much to bet (pot sized, half-pot, overbet pot, etc.) in different situations can really make a huge impact on your bottom line.

Also, good hands in no-limit aren't quite the same as good hands in limit. Hands like smallish suited connectors in no-limit can be immensely profitable because, when they hit, you can often win a very large pot with them that you just couldn't pull off in limit. Also, those sorts of hands are very easy to get away from when they don't flop well. Personally, I think I win a lot more with small cards than big cards playing no-limit while in limit I win a lot more with big cards.

The no-limit section of Doyle Brunson's Super System is a must-read in my opinion, too. He advocates an extremely aggressive style that might not be ideal for the current poker world (it was written 30 years ago) but he does make a lot of good points that are worth reading.

[JrJordan]

I'll add my two cents here as well...

I'll also second Pot-limit and No-limit by Reuben and Ciaffone for the must read of big bet poker. Take it with a grain of salt though. The games they refer to in the book have much deeper stacks and far better players than the ones you'll meet at the Party $25's.

I've played about 13,000 hands so far at the $25's and $50's and can give you a few pointers. I play an extremely tight, fairly aggressive style. My VP$IP lingers around 13%. Of course when I jump to a bigger game I'll loosen up, but for here, this is the best path IMO.

Suited Connectors and Axs: Play these only in the last 3 positions. You're usually going to see a pot sized bet when you make your draw on the flop. If you call the pot bet on the flop, you'll have to fold to another on the turn if you miss. If you have position, you can raise your draw to either win the pot right there, or earn a free card on the turn (similar concept in limit) when he checks to you. The implied odds on these hands are very small with the 50 BB stacks, so make sure the pot size warrants your draws.

Mid-low pocket pairs: Most of the time these will be used for drawing the set. PL and NL makes a nice rule to follow for deciding when to call a raise with these PF called the 5-10 rule. Bascially, always call a raise PF for set value when the bet to you is less than 5% of the smallest stack in the hand. Always fold when the bet to you is greater than 10%. In between is discretionary, depending on position and your ability to get your opponent pot committed when you flop the set.

I'm sure you've heard many of these similar concepts in your limit games. From the posts I've read, you certainly seem like a knowledgeable player and shouldn't have any issues with beating the $25 NL. Even nutpeddlers can turn a profit at this level. Most of the concepts I talked about are from PL and NL. They discuss it in far better detail.

Feel free to PM me with any other questions. You've certainly helped my limit game; I am more than happy to return the favor for NL. Good luck.

[fsuplayer]

Read any and all posts started by ML4L, Turnipmonster, Matt Flynn, and El Diablo.

There are a # of other posters who are very good, and as is the case with the Mid-High Stakes limit forum, you should be able to identify these posters quickly.

Read everything these posters discuss and buy Ciaffone's NL book.

good luck!

fsuplayer

[turnipmonster]

NL and limit are completely different games, but you should be able to pick it up with some work. I think the $25 games at party are a great place to start. that game is kind of like the 2/4 on party in that you should be able to crush it with solid play, and you should be wary of moving up until you can crush all the NL games at party.

everyone seems to like pokerstars for NL, so you might want to consider playing there. 100xBB is more realistic than the short stacked 50xBB party games, which require you to do uncomfortable things that would be mistakes with larger stacks (like backing TPTK with your stack).
--turnipmonster

[Leo Bello]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, always call a raise PF for set value when the bet to you is less than 5% of the smallest stack in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

less than 5% not of the smallest stack, but 5% of the raiser or you (the one that is less).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

From reading your limit posts and playing with you a couple times, I'd say the biggest adjustment for a player like you (us) would be value betting too much with weak hands. You can't fall in love with TPTK as its an easy way to get trapped for all your money.

I personally hate Party's NL structure The skill level on the site makes it easy money, but not that great practice IMO. Playing with deeper stacks on other sites makes the game more challanging (if that's what you're up for) and you'll find plenty of idiots on those sites too.

[turnipmonster]

I agree. in limit it is often right to sort of hammer away with top pair and it is often correct to call with overcard outs. NL is, as matt put it, a game of two pair or better.

in NL/PL it is very rarely correct to try and hit an overcard pair, overcard outs are generally viewed as extra equity to an existing draw (usually a flush or straight draw).

basically, you should read old posts from good players (matt flynn, greg raymer, limon, el diablo, ml4l, 1800gambler, etc). also, offsuit broadway hands suck in NL/PL and should be folded in EP. position (both relative to the aggressor and absolute position to the button) are very important, and should always be considered, as should the stack sizes of your opponents.

--turnipmonster

[JrJordan]

[ QUOTE ]

less than 5% not of the smallest stack, but 5% of the raiser or you (the one that is less).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I meant to say it was the smallest stack between the two. I made the assumption that it was heads up at this point. You can call more often with extra cold callers because of the increased implied odds and pot size.

[Ulysses]

The Party NL games are a great transition from limit to no-limit, because the relatively short stacks make the game often play not that far from limit once you're past the flop. Once you get to the higher Party games, the stacks often get a little deeper. After playing in those games, the next logical step is playing at Stars or UB where the 100BB buy-ins (vs. 50BB at Party) lead to a few more NL-specific decisions.

[Matt Flynn]

for archived posts i would rec Ray Zee, carl mckelvey (only a couple to read), Greg Raymor(FossilMan), limon and natedogg.

Ray Zee is the best.

matt

[Chazbot2000]

There are a lot better NL players than me throwing out advice, but I was recently in a similar position to yours. I was playing $3/6 limit profitably and jumped over to $1/2 NL. Had some experience playing sit & go's but never read a separate book or anything. $1/2 NL has been pretty much immediately profitable, so I don't think you have much to worry about.

Differences I found:

If there isn't a big raise before me, I'm inclined to limp into a lot more flops with suited connectors, and suited one gaps. In limit you need a lot of other players limping in to justfiy this. In no limit, the implied payoff with just two other players makes this worthwhile.

My favorite feature of NL is maximizing the value of a good flop. Playing limit, there are very few situations where you need to try some fancy play to maximize the value of your hand. Mostly you just bet, raise and pound away. In no limit, there are a bunch of tricks to learn in terms of how to set traps and induce bluffs that can make a set or a straight way more profitable than it is in limit.

River play is also really different. In limit, whether to bet, call or raise the river is a pretty obvious decision 90% of the time. In no limit, there are a lot of tricks to pushing someone off their hand or maximzing the value of your own made hand.

Good luck.

[Leo Bello]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have any "must-read" threads on NL ring games? Thanks for all your responses. I'll go pick up a copy of NL-PL hold'em today.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do a search on the foruns, around tow weeks ago, someone posted a Best Posts post. It contained very useful links to no-limit.

I have already suggested to make a FAQ or stick some threads, but I guess it is not viable at 2+2. Do a search and you will find whatu looking for.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have any "must-read" threads on NL ring games? Thanks for all your responses. I'll go pick up a copy of NL-PL hold'em today.

[/ QUOTE ]

PL/NL linked threads (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=28013&F_Board=plnlpoker&T hread=825988&partnumber=&postmarker=)

Sthief, here you go. I think you are really going to enjoy the switch..I know I have.

Chris