Early on: my best and worst starting hands [Archive]

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 12:08 AM

Just reviewed my best and worst starting hands (in terms of BB won or lost) in the early going (5/10, 10/20, and 15/30). I've got about 7k hands in PokerTraker from SNGs.

The best:
No surprise:
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and large suited connectors down to JTs. There is an occasional appearance by smaller pairs and Axs or Kxs.
Surprise: big unsuited stuff (e.g. AQos) is absent.

Worst hands: By far, low suited connectors and stuff like 96s, 75s, Kxs. Also AQos, KJos, JTos, and J9os.

What it means: I think it would be a mistake to fold things like AQos or Kxs as a rule, but I think i'll play them only occasionally in the early going and then only in late position with only limpers. Just like everyone says to do. Guess I just sorta verified it.

durron597

07-26-2004, 12:36 AM

DUMP Kxs. It loses enough to Axs when you both it the flush enough to make it not worth it the rare times that happens. Also play your connectors and Axs in position only, that should help make them more profitable. Also I would dump your offsuit connectors except for stealing purposes and in the blinds.

Hood

07-26-2004, 05:05 AM

I agree here. I rarely play Kxs. Perhaps button/co with lots of limpers, or from the SB. Otherwise it's trouble. Axs i'll always play late with a few players for the minimum.

Interesting stats, I don't have PT so I don't have these. If others have these stats I'd be very interested.

PrayingMantis

07-26-2004, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Worst hands: By far, low suited connectors and stuff like 96s, 75s, Kxs. Also AQos, KJos, JTos, and J9os.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you're losing money with certain hands, doesn't say much about their intrinsic value, but rather about how you play them. If you're really losing significant money on these hands, early on, you are definitely misplaying them. KJos, TJos and J9os can be very tricky and you should be very careful if you want, from some reason, to see a flop with them. It is very possible you are playing too many draws, which is a big mistake in an SNG.

As to the 97s and 75s - usually, these are not trouble hands. Either you hit hard or you're out very fast. If they are such big losers for you, you clearly need to auto-fold them PF, and work on your post-flop game. No need to lose money on such speculative hands.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 09:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that you're losing money with certain hands, doesn't say much about their intrinsic value, but rather about how you play them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:23 PM

I'm going to throw up a bunch of these low suited hands from the early on, and see if Mantis is correct: I'M PLAYING THEM LIKE A RETARD

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed)

MP2 (t1000.00)
MP3 (t1155.00)
CO (t995.00)
Hero (t970.00)
SB (t990.00)
BB (t950.00)
UTG (t785.00)
UTG+1 (t1000.00)
UTG+2 (t1185.00)
MP1 (t970.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
UTG calls t10, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t10, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t10, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t35, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls t35, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t120) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t85, Hero calls t85.

River: (t290) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t260, Hero calls t260.

Final Pot: t810

Results in white below: 
UTG shows 6s 3s (flush, eight high).
Hero shows 9h 6h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: UTG wins t810.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:27 PM

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t1330.00)
MP1 (t1270.00)
MP2 (t1580.00)
MP3 (t480.00)
CO (t1070.00)
Hero (t2170.00)
SB (t310.00)
BB (t980.00)
UTG (t810.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t10, MP1 calls t10, MP2 calls t10, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t10, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t30, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t60, SB calls t60, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t30.

Turn: (t240) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t50, SB calls t50, MP1 calls t50.

River: (t390) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets t190, MP1 folds, Hero calls t190.

Final Pot: t770
Main Pot: t770 (t770), between Hero and SB. > Pot won by SB (t770).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 9h 8h (straight, ten high).
Hero shows 7h 5h (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: SB wins t770.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:32 PM

/images/graemlins/blush.gif Was I smoking crack??

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed)

BB (t630.00)
UTG (t290.00)
UTG+1 (t1095.00)
UTG+2 (t625.00)
Hero (t1930.00)
MP2 (t970.00)
MP3 (t1525.00)
CO (t855.00)
Button (t855.00)
SB (t1225.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
UTG calls t10, UTG+1 raises to t20, UTG+2 calls t20, Hero calls t20, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, SB (poster) raises to t45, BB folds, UTG calls t35, UTG+1 calls t25, UTG+2 calls t25, Hero calls t25, CO calls t25, Button calls t25.

Flop: (t325) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB bets t45, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t45, UTG+2 calls t45, Hero calls t45, CO folds, Button calls t45.

Turn: (t550) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB bets t50, UTG+1 calls t50, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls t50, Button folds.

River: (t700) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets t300, Hero folds, SB calls t300.

Final Pot: t1300
Main Pot: t1300 (t1300), between UTG+1 and SB. > Pot won by SB (t1300).

Results in white below: 
SB shows As Ad (two pair, aces and sixes).
UTG+1 shows Qh Qs (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: SB wins t1300.

durron597

07-26-2004, 11:33 PM

You really need to bet the turn a lot harder here.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:36 PM

/images/graemlins/blush.gif way out of position

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed)

SB (t895.00)
BB (t990.00)
UTG (t1000.00)
UTG+1 (t1155.00)
Hero (t955.00)
MP1 (t940.00)
MP2 (t935.00)
MP3 (t935.00)
CO (t970.00)
Button (t1225.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t10, Hero calls t10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t10, MP3 folds, CO calls t10, Button calls t10, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t70) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets t70, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t70, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t70, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t280) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets t60, BB folds, Hero calls t60.

River: (t400) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t60, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t460
Main Pot: t400 (t400), won by CO.
Pot 2: t60 (t60), returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: CO wins t460.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:39 PM

/images/graemlins/blush.gif CALLING THIS RAISE... MUST HAVE BEEN SMOKING CRACK!

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed)

SB (t1210.00)
BB (t3200.00)
UTG (t950.00)
UTG+1 (t735.00)
Hero (t705.00)
MP2 (t945.00)
MP3 (t830.00)
CO (t950.00)
Button (t475.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t20, Hero calls t20, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to t130, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB calls t110, UTG+1 calls t110, Hero calls t110.

Flop: (t530) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets t150, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t680
Main Pot: t530 (t530), won by MP3.
Pot 2: t150 (t150), returned to MP3.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP3 wins t680.

durron597

07-26-2004, 11:42 PM

You answered your own question here. Fold that crap when out of position.

durron597

07-26-2004, 11:43 PM

Again, you answered your own question. Smoking crack to make that call.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:44 PM

Yuck. I think betting the pot was a semi bluff. Turns out his raise was a retarded semi bluff, but oh well, it worked for him.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t730.00)
MP1 (t505.00)
MP2 (t2165.00)
Hero (t790.00)
CO (t960.00)
Button (t2530.00)
SB (t890.00)
BB (t445.00)
UTG (t985.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t40, CO calls t40, Button folds, SB (poster) calls t30, BB calls t20.

Flop: (t160) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t160, CO folds, SB calls t160, BB raises to t405, Hero calls t245, SB calls t245.

Turn: (t1375) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t345, SB calls t345.

River: (t2065) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: t2065
Main Pot: t2065 (t2065), between Hero, SB and BB. > Pot won by SB (t2065).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 3c Kc (flush, king high).
Hero shows 9h Th (one pair, nines).
SB shows 4c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins t2065.

Texas Pete

07-26-2004, 11:50 PM

/images/graemlins/blush.gif Fantastic... UTG and then calling a raise... I think i've seen enough.. conclusion is, like Mantis sorta said, there is nothing wrong with playing these hands IF YOU KNOW HOW. And it's very easy to know how.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (7 handed)

Hero (t675.00)
MP1 (t1725.00)
MP2 (t1755.00)
CO (t1030.00)
Button (t2035.00)
SB (t2245.00)
BB (t535.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
Hero calls t20, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to t40, CO folds, Button calls t40, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, Hero calls t20.

Flop: (t150) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets t100, Hero folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t250
Main Pot: t150 (t150), won by Button.
Pot 2: t100 (t100), returned to Button.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Button wins t250.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:06 AM

Let me reiterate. I have read on these boards that you should only play big starting hands in the early rounds. The very nice FAQ posted last week says it "costs to much" to play little hands. In looking at my own hand history, yes, I have verified it "costs to much" when I play these hands like a retard. But I say, playing these hands in late position with a multiway (say, 2 or 3 people already in) can give you a big win for a small risk. So i'm going to continue to play these hands-- in position, and correctly.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:11 AM

People are saying just chuck it... why did it show up in my hall of shame?

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:15 AM

Basic poker here.. don't call 5BB UTG raise without AA...

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t933.00)
BB (t890.00)
UTG (t650.00)
UTG+1 (t778.00)
MP1 (t1240.00)
Hero (t923.00)
MP3 (t2730.00)
CO (t931.00)
Button (t925.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG calls t20, UTG+1 raises to t55, MP1 folds, Hero calls t55, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) calls t45, BB folds, UTG calls t35.

Flop: (t240) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t240) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets t150, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t150, Hero folds.

River: (t540) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t728, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t1268
Main Pot: t540 (t540), won by SB.
Pot 2: t728 (t728), returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins t1268.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:21 AM

Paying for too much aggression.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t2160.00)
SB (t980.00)
Hero (t990.00)
UTG (t1950.00)
MP (t810.00)
CO (t3110.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG calls t20, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to t55, SB (poster) calls t45, Hero calls t35, UTG calls t35.

Flop: (t220) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets t50, Hero raises to t100, UTG folds, Button folds, SB calls t50.

Turn: (t420) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t100, SB calls t100.

River: (t620) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t620
Main Pot: t620 (t620), between SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (t620).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 8c 8h (one pair, eights).
Hero shows 6h Kh (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: SB wins t620.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:26 AM

This is OK. For effect. Big stack, mixin it up a bit in the early rounds. Sort of ruined by the flop.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t2060.00)
Button (t1020.00)
SB (t920.00)
BB (t1075.00)
UTG (t880.00)
UTG+1 (t1035.00)
MP1 (t985.00)
MP2 (t1160.00)
MP3 (t865.00)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t20, Hero raises to t60, Button folds, SB (poster) calls t50, BB folds, MP3 calls t40.

Flop: (t200) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets t75, MP3 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t275
Main Pot: t200 (t200), won by SB.
Pot 2: t75 (t75), returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. SB wins t275.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:30 AM

This is what everyone fears. I was thinking slow play, induce a bluff, let someone catch a lesser flush or something else. Also: out of position.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t2130.00)
MP2 (t980.00)
MP3 (t1060.00)
CO (t815.00)
Button (t850.00)
SB (t1275.00)
BB (t985.00)
UTG (t1160.00)
UTG+1 (t745.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t140) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO calls t20, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t20.

Turn: (t240) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t55, MP2 calls t55, MP3 folds, CO calls t55, BB calls t55.

River: (t460) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t450, MP2 folds, CO raises to t720, Hero calls t270.

Final Pot: t1900
Main Pot: t1900 (t1900), between Hero, CO and BB. > Pot won by CO (t1900).

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
Hero shows Kd 6d (flush, king high).
CO shows 2s Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: CO wins t1900.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:38 AM

A retarded move with only 80 in the pot.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t925.00)
UTG+1 (t965.00)
MP1 (t1507.50)
MP2 (t1111.00)
Hero (t230.00)
Button (t941.00)
SB (t3425.50)
BB (t895.00)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls t20, Button calls t20, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t80) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB folds, Hero bets t210, Button calls t210, SB folds.

Turn: (t500) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t500) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t500
Main Pot: t500 (t500), between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Button (t500).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 8d Kd (one pair, kings).
Button shows 9h 9c (straight, king high).
Outcome: Button wins t500.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:40 AM

Not correct to call that raise. Also, out of position.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t840.00)
BB (t806.00)
UTG (t1025.00)
UTG+1 (t1407.00)
Hero (t1032.00)
MP1 (t1090.00)
MP2 (t120.00)
MP3 (t1040.00)
CO (t1905.00)
Button (t735.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t20, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t20, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls t20, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t100) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t20, MP2 raises to t100, Button calls t100, SB calls t100, BB folds, Hero calls t80.

Turn: (t500) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (t500) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets t100, Hero folds, Button calls t100.

Final Pot: t700
Main Pot: t700 (t700), between SB, MP2 and Button. > Pot won by MP2 (t700).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Ac 6c (two pair, aces and tens).
MP2 shows 9c Jc (straight, queen high).
Button shows 9h Ah (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: MP2 wins t700.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
People are saying just chuck it... why did it show up in my hall of shame?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I will not chuck it. Conclusion is the same: it's in my hall of shame because i've played it very badly or out of position. The infamous out-flushed by Axs will happen, but the chances are slim if you're playing from late position.

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:23 AM

Ask yourself if calling this much is a good policy? The flop is paired (which does not help you at all). The Turn is a scary card (which help you into a possible 2nd-place), the River brings further options of doom (which cannot help you at all).

Why are you calling big raises/bets on board like this? Either you have the best hand or you are in trouble. Raise or fold much more.

Calling the Turn was bad - you need to raise this or fold as you do not want to give anyone the chance of making FH, a better stright or a 1-card flush on the River. Calling the River was plain terrible.

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:29 AM

You need to make a bigger flop bet than this, the board is not scary for your hand and you will probably be called by a single K. You do not want anyone drawing to anything cheap here, which is what you let happen.

The Turn is not a good card. KT now beats you, a flush draw has appeared and a possible ISD. A bigger flop bet should have removed all of these, bar possibly KT from a loose player. They are still here. Again you make a tiddly bet (20% of the pot??), giving them pot odds of 5:1 to draw. Any flush draw or OESD correctly stays in. Not enough to push out a single TP either (which is OK, but this pot is beig enough to try and win it right there).

By the River, you are probably good quite a lot of the time HU, but you facing a bunch of opponents. The call sucks, mis-played on every street.

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:37 AM

You are chip leader - why are you pissing your chips away playing this kind of trash? You call mutliple bets on the flop with an ISD plus backdoor feeble-flush draw, WHY?

The Turn is a disaster, it brings a card which gives you reason to call bets to see the River, hell you have a draw to the nuts!!. It also pairs the board, it also means any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the River apart from a 4 and you will call a large bet to lose to a better flush.

River, OK you have nothing, Well played, too late.

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:39 AM

I despair. What an appalling pre-flop call. And the flop means you are calling to the River again. Does a pattern appear to be emerging?

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:40 AM

The reason you do not play thius kind of hand in this position, is precisely to avoid burning chips when gettin raised behind, and having to fold. If your hand cannot stand a raise here, don't play it in the first place.

Then you called....

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:46 AM

The PF raise is almost the dawning of a reasonable play, this hand is almost good enough to do this with at this stage, though I think you need to raise more if you want to steal here. Do you need to steal here? Does not look like the kind of raise/game where you are scaring people much. You have plenty of time to wait for a better hand, though this is not a bad play esp. if you have shown down a big hand you raised PF with recently.

On the flop you are CR. You have a very weak TP and there is a strong draw against you. You call. Is this limit poker, I thought it was NL? So what if it is a semi-bluff, you have a weak hand and will be in trouble if another /images/graemlins/club.gif falls or just about any overcard. Drop it to a raise like this.

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:48 AM

Terrible PF play. You have 30BB. WHY ARE YOU PLAYING THIS CRAP?

naphand

07-27-2004, 09:49 AM

So K6s is a good hand to play from MP? Since when?

naphand

07-27-2004, 10:00 AM

From the BB, and facing a 2BB possible steal-raise and 1 caller, this is just about playable. But you have to hit the flop hard to keep on (at least a pair plus other kind of draw).

You catch part of the flop, I like the raise to SB as this helps test Button, who bullet folds his overcards/steal-trash.

Turn Q is tricky, I think the Turn bet is OK, SB could be on a draw (some kind of straight). Chances are SB has hit the board in some way, you need to estimate how likely he is to fold here and bet accordingly. He probably does not think you have a Q. A half-pot-sized bet is enough to make an OESD correctly fold here; 3:1 on a 5:1 draw. He calls and either misses or is not folding his pair, so River check behind fine.

Bet here and check behind on the River, or check behind and call a small bet on the River.

I think a bet representing the straight in the River would not work, as it is clearly not an OESD-completing card.

I think you played this OK. SB's flop call was just terrible.

naphand

07-27-2004, 10:00 AM

Now you are raising with trash? What are you playing here - first out wins?

naphand

07-27-2004, 10:09 AM

You have the chip lead. Dump this trash, you can afford to be very selective.

Gad - you flop a flush. The small bet is OK, you want some callers, and it disguises your flush, look like the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or even a set playing scared.

Turn is very good for you, but you need to bet the pot here to reap the reward of your flop action and make any call by the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or a set incorrect. T55 is not enough.

River bet just terrible. The one suit you did not want to see, and NOW you heave in the chips. Who plays you here except the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? and it will be for an all-in raise. I think you have to bet here, to avoid an obvious bluff, but too much and too late.

naphand

07-27-2004, 10:20 AM

I think you can still fold this PF, but you are getting low and this could be as good a chance you will see. I presume you dropped to 5 BB as a consequence of a lost hand previously, you need to be making a move sooner than 5 BB if you have the chance.

This is not a disaster hand to play, the limp is almost certainly wrong but not much choice, well 2 choices - push or limp. The limp is forgiveable, especially as you got away with it.

You get a great draw on the flop, esp. as the A gives you the nuts. You are better than 2:1 here most of the time (except for the times you are against K plus Q/J/T or any 9. Take your chance to go all-in? It is tempting but you are only going to double your stack at best, on a draw where you are 2:1. You might be better pushing in PF with a lot of hands that will offer you odds of at least this much. Any pair plus a draw, easy push. Given your stack, I think the push is OK, you were unlucky to be against one of the few hands that beats you with a K falling.

I think given the limited opponents I would be looking to triple up, and would rather push PF with anything reasonable. You do have enough chips to see off a a few more blinds yet.

naphand

07-27-2004, 10:23 AM

Given your PF limp, you hope to take this pot down for a min bet on an A high flop. Come on....

Stop playing this trash from here, you have no problems chip-wise, no reason at all to play this PF, or any further past the flop, except if it gives you a free card to draw.

Your bet is fooling no-one, and yet you call the raise. This deserves nothing less than a jolt with the 5000V cattle prod I keep for such occasions.....zzzapppp!! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? ARE YOU THINKING ANYTHING MORE THAN "Well it's suited, I might flop a flush and win a big hand!"
Everything about your play in these hands suggests you need to do some serious homework on your PF selection, your odds calculations, and your gameplay in general.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 09:25 PM

So far I have seen that if I take my worst hands in terms of BB/hand lost, and go back and look at the individual hands, I find instances of terrible poker playing. Honestly in looking back at what I've posted so far, it's very, very embarrasing. It's sort of like being shown pictures of yourself the night before with a martini in one hand, wearing a lampshade for a hat, kissing a 350 pound woman wearing a tutu.

Anyhow, tonight I will look at KJo, AQo, KJo, JTo, J9o, and J8o, which have all showed up in my "hall of shame" for the early rounds (Top 10 t$ lost in BB/hand).

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 09:47 PM

You can fault me for playing the flop aggressively when UTG+1 raised preflop, possibly with AK, or KQ. Also a smaller bet (say betting the pot) would have taken care of the draws without risking my whole stack. But he was wrong to call and this ended up being a bad beat IMO. In any case, i'm interested to hear what people think about flop bets here.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t970.00)
MP3 (t970.00)
CO (t1055.00)
Button (t1025.00)
Hero (t1010.00)
BB (t895.00)
UTG (t900.00)
UTG+1 (t1000.00)
UTG+2 (t890.00)
MP1 (t1285.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of t5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t40, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t40, MP2 calls t40, MP3 calls t40, CO calls t40, Button folds, Hero (poster) calls t35, BB folds.

Flop: (t250) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero bets t970, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t930, (All-In) folds.

Turn: (t2150) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

River: (t2150) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)

Final Pot: t2150
Main Pot: t2150 (t2150), between MP3, CO and Hero. > Pot won by MP3 (t2150).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kc Js (one pair, kings).
MP3 shows Td Ad (straight, ten high).
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: MP3 wins t2150.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 09:56 PM

I think semi-bluff check raises are good early on.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t1465.00)
SB (t1032.50)
Hero (t990.00)
UTG (t1000.00)
UTG+1 (t990.00)
UTG+2 (t990.00)
MP1 (t1042.50)
MP2 (t515.00)
MP3 (t995.00)
CO (t980.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of t5.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t10, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t40) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t30, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls t30, SB folds.

Turn: (t100) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t40, Hero raises to t80, MP2 calls t40.

River: (t260) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: t260
Main Pot: t260 (t260), between Hero and MP2. > Pot won by MP2 (t260).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Js Kc (high card, king).
MP2 shows Qs Jd (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins t260.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:06 PM

Bad poker here. I raise UTG+1 and met with a huge raise. IT was wrong for me to call with AQo.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t1310.00)
SB (t855.00)
BB (t902.00)
UTG (t712.00)
Hero (t1295.00)
MP1 (t570.00)
MP2 (t577.00)
MP3 (t2067.00)
CO (t1712.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, Hero raises to t40, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to t160, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) calls t150, BB folds, Hero calls t120.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:18 PM

I can think of better ways to play this now.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t890.00)
MP3 (t1380.00)
CO (t945.00)
Button (t1220.00)
Hero (t1075.00)
BB (t1390.00)
UTG (t1210.00)
UTG+1 (t800.00)
MP1 (t1090.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of t10.
UTG calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t20, CO folds, Button folds, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t140) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
Hero bets t100, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t100, MP2 calls t100, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t440) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

River: (t440) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets t100, Hero calls t100, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t640
Main Pot: t640 (t640), between MP2 and Hero. > Pot won by MP2 (t640).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qs Kc (one pair, kings).
MP2 shows Kh Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins t640.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:22 PM

Drawing dead, oh boy.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t510.00)
MP1 (t920.00)
MP2 (t1165.00)
CO (t1190.00)
Hero (t1290.00)
SB (t1075.00)
BB (t2050.00)
UTG (t1800.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG calls t20, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises to t55, Hero calls t55, SB (poster) calls t45, BB calls t35, UTG calls t35.

Flop: (t275) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB folds, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets t60, Hero raises to t120, BB calls t120, UTG folds, CO calls t60.

Turn: (t635) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets t100, BB folds, CO calls t100.

River: (t835) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets t110, CO calls t110.

Final Pot: t1055
Main Pot: t1055 (t1055), between CO and Hero. > Pot won by CO (t1055).

Results in white below: 
CO shows Ad As (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero shows Kh Qs (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: CO wins t1055.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:27 PM

Hmm. Paying for aggression. Or pissing away chips, however you want to look at it. I'll go with the latter.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1885.00)
UTG+1 (t1085.00)
MP1 (t1795.00)
Hero (t1335.00)
MP3 (t685.00)
CO (t860.00)
Button (t670.00)
SB (t820.00)
BB (t865.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t40, MP3 calls t40, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) calls t30, BB calls t20.

Flop: (t160) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t100, MP3 calls t100, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t360) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t100, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t460
Main Pot: t360 (t360), won by MP3.
Pot 2: t100 (t100), returned to MP3.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP3 wins t460.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:32 PM

Check and fold. Min bet is stupid given the size of the pot and check raise for an overcard would be much better off without the straight draw on board.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t540.00)
BB (t1125.00)
UTG (t920.00)
Hero (t835.00)
MP1 (t2370.00)
MP2 (t635.00)
MP3 (t1175.00)
CO (t1185.00)
Button (t1215.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, Hero raises to t40, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t40, CO calls t40, Button calls t40, SB (poster) folds, BB calls t20.

Flop: (t210) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t20, MP3 calls t20, CO folds, Button calls t20, BB folds.

Turn: (t270) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets t20, MP3 calls t20, Button folds.

River: (t310) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t20, MP3 raises to t200, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t530
Main Pot: t350 (t350), won by MP3.
Pot 2: t180 (t180), returned to MP3.

Results in white below: 
MP3 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP3 wins t530.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:37 PM

Pissing away chips with pure BS here.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t910.00)
CO (t1422.50)
Button (t2967.50)
Hero (t1335.00)
BB (t615.00)
UTG (t1185.00)
MP1 (t1565.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t20, CO calls t20, Button folds, Hero (poster) raises to t40, BB folds, MP2 calls t20, CO calls t20.

Flop: (t140) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets t140, MP2 raises to t870, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1150
Main Pot: t420 (t420), won by MP2.
Pot 2: t730 (t730), returned to MP2.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP2 wins t1150.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:40 PM

JTo ain't something to go all in with even against a little guy.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t1590.00)
Hero (t2085.00)
UTG (t150.00)
MP1 (t1260.00)
MP2 (t2835.00)
CO (t1335.00)
Button (t745.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG raises to t150, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t150, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, Hero calls t130.

Flop: (t460) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t180, Hero folds.

Turn: (t640) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

River: (t640) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t640
Main Pot: t460 (t460), won by MP2.
Pot 2: t180 (t180), between UTG and MP2. > Pot won by MP2 (t180).

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Kh 4h (one pair, kings).
MP2 shows 6d Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins t640.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 10:51 PM

Stupid.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t10 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 (t1083.00)
CO (t895.00)
Hero (t1178.00)
SB (t890.00)
BB (t985.00)
UTG (t970.00)
UTG+1 (t2744.00)
MP1 (t1255.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of t10.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t40, MP2 calls t40, CO calls t40, Hero calls t40, SB (poster) folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t190) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets t20, CO raises to t100, Hero raises to t180, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls t80.

Turn: (t570) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets t100, CO raises to t200, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t870
Main Pot: t770 (t770), won by CO.
Pot 2: t100 (t100), returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins t870.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 11:04 PM

Well, clearly bad play made things worse than they had to be, but it's also clear that these hands are a little more difficult to play early on. Not difficult in an absolute sense, but more difficult than all other hands early on. They require the most thinking IMO.

Changes in my play: These aren't the sort of hands to screw around with early on. Play 'em real tight.

Texas Pete

07-27-2004, 11:18 PM

OK, well, that's my hall of shame. It's quite shameful. The original idea was to investigate various starting hands for early round play. The conclusion is unsuited middle and high hands (KJo, JTo) can be tricky to play. I see no evidence that confirms what you hear sometimes on the boards: "don't play Kxo or low suited connectors". Feel free to post evidence to the contrary. It's OK to play these hands if you play them correctly, from the proper (late) position. In fact, that's what these hands are made for. Multiway pots that are cheap to enter.