Pocket Qs...Play Along...You Tell Me Hand Against [Archive]

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RED_RAIN

07-25-2004, 08:16 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

5 players to the flop eh. SB checks so 3 to act behind. If I bet, I think high diamonds are likely to call, MP3 could be ahead and raise me which helps me little. No way a high diamond is going to fold. So I check thinking MP3 is very likely to bet the flop and I want to see the turn for one.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, SB folds.

What a little *beep*. So I bet here thinking I'm likely to be in the lead. I'm thinking MP2 is unlikely to fold but maybe I can get rid of the others except maybe those with a high diamond, I don't care of any one who has paired the board calls as I am ahead for now.

River: (11.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Yuck. Here is my thinking. I don't want to bet into 2 of them because of MP1. What I'm most interested in is MP1's move. If MP1 bets, I will fold regardless of MP2s action as I don't see what MP1 would be calling down with with a diamond. Maybe this is a bad laydown with an over pair, but due to MP2 3-betting me preflop, I think he's got a pocket pair or AK, AQ at weakest with more than likely a diamond if he bets, so I doubt MP2 would bet without a diamond here as he would probably rather just check/call with a pair on the board.
Once MP1 checks, I don't believe he has much of a hand, when MP2 bets, I don't put him on AK or AQ with a diamond since he would probably easily bet this on the flop. So he probably has a pocket, with nearly 10:1 odds or so to call his river bet, I'll call his bet especially since MP1 checked. I doubt MP1 will call with a low flush since he probably puts MP2 on a high flush card because of the preflop 3-bet and the bet on the river. If MP1 put MP2 on a high pocket, MP2 probably would just also check this.
So to sum it up, if MP1 bets, I fold if MP2 calls, maybe make a crying call against just MP1. If MP1 checks and MP2 bets, I'll call and fold to a check/raise by MP1.
I don't think betting into this river is a good idea (as some might say bet and fold to a raise) as what is MP1 likely to have?

So was my play correct throughout this whole hand? What does MP2 have?

Final Pot: 13.25 BB
Main Pot: 13.25 BB, between Hero and MP2.

sthief09

07-25-2004, 08:18 PM

cap preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river, and fold to a raise. pretty standard

GuidoSarducci

07-25-2004, 11:12 PM

What in the name of Sweet Baby Jesus are you doing on the flop?

There's 5 people on the looking at 3 diamonds on the board, you hold no diamond, and you're going to give these guys a free turn card?! With this situation, I'd be in full hand protection mode. I wouldn't give these draws the free card in a million years. You might already be behind here, but if another diamond hits the board, I'd bet the house that you're dead on the turn against 5 other people.

I agree with your summation that anyone with a decent diamond probably won't be folding, but why give them carte blanche to draw out on you?

xerostar

07-25-2004, 11:20 PM

I definitely think you should've capped preflop. You should have also bet the flop, remember, the flop is when you bet for information, since you don't know what anyone has, everyone who doesn't have a high diamond will fold, anyone who made the flush/on a flush draw will raise or call. Since the turn card was probably trash for everyone, you should bet again and see if a flop raiser raised again. Then you should fold. Otherwise, I say you would probably have had the best hand.

Evan

07-25-2004, 11:31 PM

I'm capping this preflop, but I suppose an argument can be made for not. What was your reasoning there?
The flop is an instabet in my mind. You said high diamonds are likely to call...so what exactly are you trying to say? While someone with a high diamond would be getting correct odds to call a bet, you're making a huge mistake by letting them draw for free. Besides that you might be able to gain some information with the bet.
Obviously you did the right thing by betting the turn.
Now you've gotten yourself into a bad sopt on the river. This is why you need to bet the flop, so that you have some idea where you stand when the diamond hits. Getting past that, I think that the river check is pretty bad. I'm assuming you were planning to check-call the river unless you were facing a raise or forced to overcall. If you bet here you give yourself a chance to win the pot without showing your hand, posssibly folding a hand that beat you (i.e. a small flush). If you bet and are raised I think you can be 99% sre you're beat unless your opponents are extremely tough. If you bet and are called and end up losing it costs you the same 1BB anyway, but at least you gave yourself a chance to pick up the pot.

Evan

07-25-2004, 11:33 PM

As for what MP2 has, I think it's almost a pure guess since you checked the flop.

bernie

07-26-2004, 03:25 PM

I don't know the players, but given how many describe Party, I might cap this preflop.

Flop: Either bet out, or I might go for a c/r. Anyone raising here could mean a draw or made hand. They'll usually 3 bet a better hand to a c/r than they will just raise a single bet coming out. I think a case can be made for both.

So let's assume you missed the c/r...

Turn: Fine. It can look like you missed the c/r on the flop doing this. Live, i'd smoke that bet out there quick as if you 'don't want to miss the bet on this street'. It can be very believable since many might expect the preflop 3 bettor to bet this flop.

River: I think if you're going to call here, and you think a lesser hand may call, bet out. Are these guys capable of a bluff raise here? With your bet on the turn, and betting out, it can look like you have a high diamond after missing your flop c/r. You may, MAY get a mid diamond to fold. If the guy is real weak he may even fold a Q or Jd. Rare, but it's possible. Since he may not see himself betting this river without a better holding than what he has.

I think you lost to a mid diamond. Maybe AQ/J with the Q/Jd. I'd be suprised if he had a high pair given his play. Nor the A. Probably not the K. (what would he 3 bet preflop with a K other than AKo given his play postflop) Player knowledge will help. Would this guy jam a draw? Would he take a stab with 2nd nut draw? Does he go into a shell postflop on this type of board?

These types of flops can be a pain. You never really know who has what. However, the lack of any real action on 2 streets is a good indication that no one flopped it.

Also, some may think they wouldn't see the river without the draw...MP1 folded. MP2 might also.

have a good one...

b

bdk3clash

07-26-2004, 03:46 PM

I think people are being a tad results oriented in criticizing your attempted flop checkraise. Having said that, I think your position relative to the preflop 3-bettor makes betting out and hoping he raises your best option, since that would confront the CO and SB with 2 bets cold.

Checkraising here is more of a pot-building play since it potentially ropes everyone in for 1 bet at a time. I don't like it, but whatever.

Turn looks good. MP2 sure looks like he has a very timidly played AKo with a A or K of /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

On the river I think betting out and folding to a raise is much better than check-calling. By checking, you're limiting your calls to hands that bet on a 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif board, whereas by betting you'll get called by worse hands quite frequently. It's just incredidly unlikely that someone raises here without a hand that can beat QQ-no-diamonds.

This is a rare instance where folding to a single bet in a largish pot makes a lot of sense, I think. Of course, I tend to be wrong quite often.

bernie

07-26-2004, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think people are being a tad results oriented in criticizing your attempted flop checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wasn't trying for a c/r. I put that in my post because if i checked this flop, that's what i'd be looking to do. The MP2 to bet. Nothing results oriented about it. It's what was presented to us as the action up to that point, and how he chose to play the flop.

Betting out is what i'd likely do here.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a rare instance where folding to a single bet in a largish pot makes a lot of sense, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, this is opponent dependent. You've just induced a bluff on the river. You basically said with the river check that you don't have a diamond. Unless this is a player that only would bet a diamond here, it may be a bad fold.

b

bdk3clash

07-26-2004, 04:14 PM

To clarify what I was trying to say:

-If I checked, I would have definitely called one bet.
-If I bet, I would fold to a raise.
-Betting and folding to a raise is better than checking and calling.

I would not advocate check-folding this river.

I was also wrong-wrong-wrong in thinking Red Rain was attempting a flop check-raise, since (upon rereading) he states he wanted to see the turn for one bet. The flop decision to me is bet out or check-raise. Check-call wasn't even on my radar, though I guess I can see check-call, check-raise a non-/images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn.

Sorry for misreading the original post and for the vageness of my response--hope I cleared my thoughts up, however muddled they may be.

bernie

07-26-2004, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call wasn't even on my radar, though I guess I can see check-call, check-raise a non- /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that with this board, it can be tougher to get the c/r in on the turn. I think it's more likely to be checked through if it's bet on the flop and many call. Let's say the MP2 has AKo with a diamond. He could easily check this through after betting the flop.

b

RED_RAIN

07-27-2004, 12:16 AM

River: (11.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB
Main Pot: 13.25 BB, between Hero and MP2. > Pot won by Hero (13.25 BB).

Results:
Hero shows Qh Qc (one pair, queens).
MP2 shows Ac 7c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.25 BB.