Losing at Party 5+1s

[parappa]

(long rambling download about first bunch of tournaments follows)

Hey all,

I'm not sure what's going on. For my first 30 or so PP5+1s I had an ROI of like 40% and after 82, my breakdown is as follows:

1-5
2-11
3-17
4-12
5-8
6-8
7-10
8-3
9-3
10-4

ROI=94.6%

(Note that were I playing 10+1, as advocated by everyone, my ROI would still only be 103%, so there's a problem).

I've been basically following the "beating party 10+1" guide, and my tournaments usually go in one of a few ways:

1. I hit a premium hand that stands up early and coast to the bubble.

2. I get a premium hand busted early and am in all-in mode fairly early. (I play these by raising to 3xBB and leading on the flop with a pot-sized bet if there aren't overcards or something scary. When there are overcards, I'll bet out if I think I can get one player to fold, but usually I'll check and let it go early b/c I've lost too many chips chasing overcards.)

3. I get nothing playable at all and have like 600 chips when the blinds go up to 50-100 and am looking to push.

On the flop, I'm playing a set or better with a pot-sized bet and an all-in reraise if raised. I'm making a pot-sized bet with top pair/top kicker and making crying calls (for _tiny_ bets, like 30 into a 150 pot) to the river if overcards come, folding to big bets against overcards. I'm drawing to 4-flushes when I'm getting better than 2:1 and laying them down on the flop when confronted with a pot-sized bet. I feel like I'm playing straightforward, solid no fold-em poker.

I can see that I'm clearly not playing aggressively enough when on the bubble and beyond, but I'm not sure how to beef it up. Rarely I'll get to 4-5 left with a stack of over 2000. Usually I have 1000-1500 if I've won a pot so far, but I often get down to 4-5 with 600-700 chips. I'll play all pairs, two paint cards, and ace-x. Sometimes I'll play Kx as a steal. I try to get a read on who won't defend their blinds and steal from them, but I really only semi-bluff most of the time b/c I'm typically short stacked enough when I get to the bubble that one blown steal takes a huge chunk of my stack.

When I get into the money I'm usually the short stack and I'm pushing with pairs, Ax, Kx, Qx, and sometimes Jx if I'm shortstacked. If I have more chips I'm raising to 3xBB with these hands. I seem to end up in a lot of coin tosses, but I do seem to have my money in with better cards as often as I'm beaten. What really worries me once I'm in the money is that I seem to be much more aggressive than the other players, I'm usually the first one called down on an all-in in spite of tight play, and I'm usually the first one out.

When I get to a final showdown, I'm pushing or raising 3xbb with any pair, ace, king, queen to q6, jack to j8, T9, and 98. This clearly doesn't seem to be enough but I haven't figured out what else to add.

When I was having better results, I was playing very, very tight for the first few rounds, basically only AA-JJ or so. Then I started getting blinded down to the felt on a regular basis and didn't like being forced to go all-in with hands worse than hands I had folded earlier.

I'm really trying to go back to square one, as I'm not at all happy with these results, and I'm extremely frustrated with my recent results. I've tried playing a bit looser to get a few more chips before the bubble, which hasn't really worked. Basically, I can keep playing more tournaments, but what I'm doing clearly isn't working. I've tought about going to play the Pacific $2+.20 tournaments to get more experience.

If anyone has any ideas about what I can do to improve/analyze my play, please let me know, as I'm playing about as solidly as I know how and not having very good results.

Any comments welcome

Thanks!

[PrayingMantis]

Your ROI is -6.5%. When we use ROI we mean (net profit)/(investment). ROI of 94.6% is almost double your investment on each tourney.

Anyway, these are not great results. It's possible you are playing TOO tight, or not aggressive enough when short-handed. It could be that you're letting hyper-loose aggressive fish push you around, and this is not good. When people around you are playing ANY crap, it makes sense to loosen-up your standards. Don't try to outplay them, play very strong when there's a good enough chance you're ahead, and muck when you don't have it. Try not to play too mechanically (Aleo's guide is a great reference for low-limits, but you MUST think for yourslef, understand the logic behind it, and adjust to different situations and opponents).

Good luck.

Edit: 2 more points - your sample is still pretty small, and your ITM distribution shows you have some problem there.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Your ROI is -6.5%. When we use ROI we mean (net profit)/(investment). ROI of 94.6% is almost double your investment on each tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yes. That seems obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
It could be that you're letting hyper-loose aggressive fish push you around, and this is not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you do this, when getting it wrong costs so much of your stack and there's another hand? Or, to put it another way, would you recommend that I, as a beginning NL player, go solely on intuition in these sorts of circumstances and sort it out over time by getting beaten, or to work from a rather rigid set of rules and slowly loosen up? I see silly players on hand one calling an all-in bet with nothing, then saying "Oh, I thought you didn't have it."

To ground this question, a common example:

I raise AKo on the button 3xBB and the BB calls. Flop comes K62 rainbow. Checked to me. I bet pot and am re-raised all-in.

My opponent could have anything, and I have no way to figure out what to do. I pretty much autofold this sequence unless the player has shown himself to be terrible, but it's only because I've gotten shown 2 pair too many times. Do you just have to feel your way here, or is there a helpful assumption one can make?

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise AKo on the button 3xBB and the BB calls. Flop comes K62 rainbow. Checked to me. I bet pot and am re-raised all-in.


[/ QUOTE ]

At the 5+1 Im going to call this every time so fast. I might even push the flop if I have at least 3 others to the flop with me, cause I know someone has a pair and they love to call all ins. Hell at the 5+1 JQ would push saying they have a nut draw.

[eastbay]

That's almost always a call, but it depends on stack sizes and a few other variables.

But as a rule, call, and be happy to.

From this example alone it seems clear that your main problem is that you let yourself get pushed around.

eastbay

[parappa]

Yes, that is probably it--it would account for my lack of wins when ITM as well. I posted that AKo hand as what seemed to me to be an obvious fold!

My next emphasis is going to be on trying to sort out the good players from the bad in the first round (there are usually one or two players who are clearly as good/better than me, I see them when I get to the end.) and to be a little less tight/weak against the loose, aggressive players when I have a good hand.

[mcj0014]

Hey, I'm having the same problem. Do you want to exchange a HH for a tournament and look over each others play? It might be instructive.

[stupidsucker]

Like Eastbay said , there are some variables that would make this a fold occasionally. Big stack Vs Big stack would be one of them. Having a great read on a player might be another, but for the most part this is an ABC call.

5+1s are over aggressive, and you have to compinsate and be a little loose on calling all ins yourself. If you play premium hands like AK you will get the better end of it more often then not. These guys know they are beat, and know people will call them. They LOVE to gamble... let them.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I'm having the same problem. Do you want to exchange a HH for a tournament and look over each others play? It might be instructive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Is there a p.m. function on this board, or maybe I should put an email in my profile.

[mcj0014]

I sent you a PM with my email.