Hemorrhaging

[Greg J]

Okay, I'm not all that experienced, but I've played enough to have moderate downswings... but I have sat down today for probably a total of 100 hands and the money is seemingly evaporating.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know... I hate posts where people whine about how bad things are going, but believe it or not I'm not here to bitch. This experience is just taking me aback a bit b/c I've never experienced it. I'm a little taken aback -- I've had plenty of losing sessions, but never nosedives of the magnitude I'm now expeiencing. Perhaps I've been lucky so far not to have had one, and I should be mentally tougher. Lately though, I sit down and in a few hands the money I initially had is gone. I'm missing literally every draw, and my opponents seem to hit every draw to beat my solid hands. I;m used to this... in moderation. But when it happens in EVERY hand I involve myself in the money dissapears.

My conceptualization of downswings so far have been more drawn out -- like loosing 20 BBs over the course of few hundred hands. What is currently happening is leaving me doubtful and a little disheartened. So my question to you guys on this board, as you have been invaluable in improving my game, is what is the nature of the worst downswings? Are they nosedives as I'm describing where it seems like you are hemorrhaging money and it doesnt want to stop?

I want to emphasize that I'm not in panic mode or anything. I'm still up by quite a bit since I moved up limits. It's just one or two more sessions like I have been having and I won't be.

[rjc199]

How much are you down BB-wise?

[Greg J]

Well i have read that a 300BB downswing is about as large as it goes for a winning player. Mine is not anywhere near that... It's about 50BBs in the course of <100 hands. It's not the magnitude I'm worried about but the velocity -- that is I'm not so much concerned with the ammount (yet) as I am how fast I'm loosing it.

Sorry I was not more clear about that. If this is a silly concern chalk it up to inexperience. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nottom]

I lost 100BBs just the other day in one session after just moving up in limits. It sucked, it hurt, I was doubting myself. I went back and have done just fine since then.

Losing sessions happen to everybody, sometimes they are really nasty where you keeping making good hands that don't holdup but rest assured for every horrible day like the one you just had, you will proabably have 1 or 2 sessions where everything just goes your way and you feel like this is the easiest game in the world.

[bisonbison]

Quick browse through PT.

Some bad sessions:

-33 BB, 80 hands. Party 2/4.
-32 BB, 109 hands. Party 2/4.
-30 BB, 103 hands. Party 2/4.
-28 BB, 34 hands. Party 2/4. <- wow.
-25 BB, 32 hands. Party 2/4. <- wow.

worst at .5/1?
-35 BB, 56 hands.

Now, I may have been tilting for some of these sessions. I certainly don't remember. But I'm sure for some of them I just got brutalized in that special poker way, and I realized that if I didn't get up, I was gonna go on terrible tilt.

[dfscott]

Hey Greg-

The best thing you've done is to stop playing and make this post. I went on a plummet last night where every set was rivered, all my AA hands were cracked, and the rest of the hands were garbage. There are many types of tilt, and instead of just going nuts, I went past what Caro calls the "Threshold of Misery." It basically means that you keep losing so many hands that you just don't care anymore. It's different from playing scared in that you just keep playing the same way, but you miss the key points in the hand to push or bail, because it doesn't matter since you know you're going to be sucked out on.

I was lucky and recognized it last night. I signed off (in the midst of all these people talking about how great the tables were!) and took a break. I updated my BR spreadsheet and looked back at the past week. Yes, I'd lost a lot that night, but overall, it really wasn't that bad. Still not convinced, I then posted a whiny post about how it sucks to be me.

Yes, you will have massive plummets where you nothing goes right. The only thing to do is just ride it out (but you knew that already, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Keep an eye on yourself and make sure that you're not going on tilt. It will end -- just keep playing solid poker.

You say you're "hemmorhaging" -- how many BB are you talking about over what period? Sometimes it seems much worse when you're in the middle of it but when you sit back and quantify it, it's really not that bad.

Also, post a few hands and make sure you don't have any obvious leaks. Hang in there -- this too will pass.

Edit: I took so long writing this that you'd already gotten replies and answered my question. You're fine -- if you lose double that, come back and we'll talk. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I lost 100BBs just the other day in one session after just moving up in limits. It sucked, it hurt, I was doubting myself. I went back and have done just fine since then.

[/ QUOTE ]
That puts things in perspective. Now THAT is a nosedive that makes my post seems silly.

Glad it's working for you again.

[Nottom]

Well it was shorthanded and it did take a whole 3 hours to lose it.

[banditdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Quick browse through PT.

Some bad sessions:

-33 BB, 80 hands. Party 2/4.
-32 BB, 109 hands. Party 2/4.
-30 BB, 103 hands. Party 2/4.
-28 BB, 34 hands. Party 2/4. <- wow.
-25 BB, 32 hands. Party 2/4. <- wow.

worst at .5/1?
-35 BB, 56 hands.

Now, I may have been tilting for some of these sessions. I certainly don't remember. But I'm sure for some of them I just got brutalized in that special poker way, and I realized that if I didn't get up, I was gonna go on terrible tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you isolate these sessions on PT?

[bisonbison]

session notes tab. sort by ($ Won) twice and it'll go in ascending order from worst to first.

[banditdad]

I just now got nailed on a hand where I hand AKs on the button. 2 maniacs are raising and reraising and by the time we get to the river I have 18:1 pot odds with 6 outs to catch a A or K. I know these guys have zip and I can't pair up my A or K. They SD and one has 22 the other 44. Sometimes it's best to just call it a night.

[Nemesis]

just wait for the upswing of 100 BB's in a day you'll feel better. Also, double click on the sessions under that tab and when you go back to your main tab it has ONLY info about that one in it. Very cool because you can look and see if you had some huge pots where you got drawn out on, or big pocket pairs the didn't hold up that cost you a lot. Basically you can see WHY you lost it.

[imitation]

When I was playing 25c/50c I lost 30BB in 11hands.

[Nottom]

On a lighter note, digging through PT shows ...

+96.5BB - 223 Hands (@ 3/6)
+46.6BB - 27 hands (@ 3/6)

and from tonight ...
+48BB - 60 Hands (@ 5/10)

A few of these and you will forget all about the crappy ones for a while.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
It's about 50BBs in the course of <100 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

In 100 hands, anything save GuyOnTilt getting laid is possible, including the very best of players losing 50 big bets. /images/graemlins/wink.gif And yes, you are lucky to have not experienced anything larger than 20 big bet downswings until now. Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was, or I just put in a lot of hours, or it's my play style or the limits I play at, or etc., but I experience -75 big bet days about once a week.

-Brian

[Jaran]

Hey Greg,
I recently went through a 200+bb downswing, from which my br is still recovering. Most of it at the beginning was just what you are describing here; missing all draws, premium hands getting outdrawn, AK and AQ missing every flop, etc. Then I compounded the cold cards by playing more timidly, I wouldn't stay with draws because I knew they would miss. I would give up aggression at any playback from my opponents. The only raise I would make involved having the nuts. Every session started with the thought let's see how I will lose today. I have had 100bb downswings before, but I had never experienced one of this magnatude. What finally turned it around was I grew numb. I just didn't care anymore about winning or losing (this is a strange feeling for me, as I am uber-competitive). And then I started to play my game again. I don't know if this helps or not, but here it is FWIW.

-Jaran

[gojacketz]

Take a walk, get away from it for a while. Go over the hands in Pokertracker and reassure yourself that you are playing well.

In the grand scheme of it all, 50BB in 100 hands is totally insignificant, but it does really suck right now.

Gojacketz

[bennyk]

Greg J,
I always try to take a day off when I have a really bad series of sessions. This is hard because I REALLY want to get back in there and "let the statistics do their stuff", hoping that if I play more hands, the streak will end. This is fine, if you remember to keep thinking during your losing sessions.

Beware of playing when you've lost a lot though, since you'll tilt WAY before you realize you're tilting.

I wonder what people have to say about bad results that last over periods of 1000+ hands. I've had a couple long but reasonably "shallow" losing periods, and they can be just as maddening if not worse.

Hope it's over soon,
bk

[bisonbison]

It's funny that this post was just yesterday, cause this afternoon I felt like I went on major tilt for the first time in a while.

I was four 3/6 tabling, as is my wont, and on one of my tables I got brutalized. Set over set, JJ under QQ under KK with no overcards on the board, QK with opponent holding QQ and a Q flops. 1 winning hand in 63. Won $ at showdown? 9%. I lost 40 BB.

The funny thing is, until I looked in PT, I thought that I took it in the pants on all my tables. Turns out I was breaking even or better on my other ones, but I let the sense of doom and foreboding spread from the bad one to the other three. I started chasing, I started making idiotic bluffs. I started doing dumb things. And I turned what should have been an overall loss of about 20BB into a 45BB loss.

It had been a long time since I'd let my thinking about results affect my results this much. Ugh. It happens to the handsomest of us.

[Blarg]

Umm, your draws are SUPPOSED to miss. That's why you need such good odds to bother with them. They need to pay off well on the infrequent times you do hit them to make up for what usually happens, which is that you don't. Overall, you just really can't be too mad about missing a lot of draws.

And 20 BB? That's less than a single buy-in. If you're used to only that much as about the top end of your losses, you've been doing very well and were overdue for some tougher times. Sorry to hear that some came your way, though. But it's definitely everybody's lot sooner or later.

You're just taking it a little too hard.

[Greg J]

Since this post just got bumped I though I would give a brief update: After studying for my general exams most of the day I managed to play a few hours... and had a session that erased 3/4ths of the losses I encurred yesterday.

I had had bad sessions before, but the nosedive yesterday was a new experience. It was just so damn FAST. Oh well I am bouncing back.

Thanks for the encouragement all.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif Greg