Do you see monsters?

[bobdibble]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (14.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB

[Nemesis]

No i refuse to see them, possibly paired his K and thinks his new top pair is good. He'd have to have KJ or KK to beat you with the river card. I don't think his previous action indicates he has those 2 hands.

[cartoonsoldier]

I actually think KK is a possibility.

He has capped the betting PF, and slowed down on the flop/turn.

If he thinks hero has a J, than he wouldn't 3-bet. This is considering he is a good player. KK is a possibility here and he might have it actually.

[Nottom]

I might not see monsters but I'm not capping the river.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think KK is a possibility.


[/ QUOTE ]

The way villian played this hand is how I would have played KK.

[SoCalPat]

JQs isn't a three-betting hand PF, my friend.

And when he bets out the river, I just call. First, there isn't a standard three-betting hand out there (other than JJ) that contains a J in it. That's why he's stuck around this long. He's likely putting you on QQ or AA (I've never put anyone on quads on the flop and neither should you, so that rules out JJ here).

The river did him much good. If he's put you on QQ or AA, he's betting out here because he knows he's got the goods, and hands like AA (or a singleton J) will raise him. And he wants to be raised.

As for your raise, there's no value in it, IMO. Here's why:

Let's say he has KK (or he's a little wild PF and has KJ). You're toast. If you raise, it's going to cost you 3 BBs to get a showdown. Four is highly likely, given you initiated the raising to begin with. So you stand to waste 2-3 BBs here.

Now let's say he doesn't. He bets out his AK and you raise. He might just fold there, meaning you've gained nothing. He might call the raise, in which case you've gained 1 BB. Given the action PF, you have to respect KK here. It's a monster worth fearing.

[citizenkn]

What does everyone think of playing this hand to a raise in the first place? I absolutely think 3-betting was not a good idea, and I would have seriously thought of folding this hand pre-flop. Is that thinking too tight?

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
JQs isn't a three-betting hand PF, my friend.

[/ QUOTE ]
i can't believe it took 4 replies before somebody mentioned this.

[young nut]

PLaying this hand was the correct play if you ask me. I would not have 3 bet PF, but playing QJ suited to one raise is correct. The reason being, there are other people in the pot, this helps your implied odds for suited / connector cards. Also Hero is in the best position at the table, on the button.

As far as the hand goes. I would be 60% sure that UTG+2 has KK. He capped preflop showing he has a top quality hand. He bet out on the flop, but only called your raise. checked the turn, and then mysteriously bets the river when the K comes out, knowing you will probably raise. I think if he had AK, he would still have check called that river card, because from the looks of your betting, he is still beat by a Jack. I'd be curious to see the results, but I would think KK.

[Saborion]

You 3-bet pre?

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason being, there are other people in the pot, this helps your implied odds for suited / connector cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, his implied odds are cut in half, having to pay 2 SB's to see the flop. And it can be raised behind him as well. And he'll flop a pair much more often than he'll flop 2 pair/trips or a draw.

What I meant with implied odds being cut in half is easier to understand by looking a low/medium PP. Say you cold-call with a pair of 5's since you know it'll be a 5-way pot. In an unraised pot, this is a very easy call to make since you'll only have to gather another, hmm, is it 3 or 4 SB's?, well, say 4, to break even on that pre-flop call. If the pot has been raised pre-flop, you'll need to collect another 3-4 BB's to break even on that pre-flop call. Not that it, in most cases anyway, is hard to do that in a multi-way pot with a PFR. But you get the point. PP's are more attractive to play when it's a raised pot than suited connectors, since the latter prefers a passive post-flop play.

All that said, I don't know if the pre-flop call is ok or not. All I know is that I think it's a bad call, and that I wouldn't do it.