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View Full Version : T9s: Pre-flop/Flop/Turn/River.


LarsVegas
07-24-2004, 08:20 AM
Party Poker $200+15 one-table. Level 1, third or fourth hand, no reads on any players yet or any familiar faces.

EP limps, I look down at Tc9c in MP and limp too. Button comes along for the ride, SB completes and BB check. T75 in the pot.

Flop: Jc-9s-6h. Checked to me, I bet T40, button calls and the rest fold.

Turn: Td. I bet T90, button makes it T250 total, T160 to me. I call.

River: 3c. I check, button bets T300, I ponder for a while with my now T665 stack and fold.

Comments?

lars

Martin Aigner
07-24-2004, 08:26 AM
Lars,

1) I´m not sure about the call preflop. I´d rather muck it.
2) Why bet on the turn?
3) If bet: Why half pot?
4) Why bet again half pot on the turn?
5) I´d call the raise, too
6) I´d fold on the river, too

Best regards

Martin Aigner

Martin Aigner
07-24-2004, 08:27 AM
Correction: Better to bet the river for about 100 and muck to any raise.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

LarsVegas
07-24-2004, 10:18 AM
1) I´m not sure about the call preflop. I´d rather muck it.

With 66.7 big blinds in my stack and most others' and a limper in front of me, I think it's playable. I do however think a case could be made for making it T50 to go, which has a few advantages, deception, more likely to give me position, gives me the initiative, but most importantly gives protection against the players who loves nothing more than to pick up a pot pre-flop after a few limpers with a big raise (even at early levels).

2) Why bet on the turn?

Given question 4, I assume you mean the flop here. I might have the best hand, I think it gives me better information than checking it to a button who will bet often, but will still have me holding a hand I don't want to put too many chips in with. Even if I don't have the best hand, I'd like to see a turn for cheap given that I hold a pair and a double backdoor flush draw. So another reason why I bet the turn is related to question 3, I'd much rather bet 40 myself and get called than to check and have the button bet 100 or something, which is far from unlikely.

3) If bet: Why half pot?

It's not quite half pot, it's about 60% of the pot. Well, as a general rule in my NL Holdem game, and more so in tournaments than cashgames, I lean towards betting less than the pot, usually around 2/3's of the pot. On average, I bet even slightly less with my somewhat weaker hands, although I mix this up in a way that makes it very hard to read/exploit.

On this hand, I have a marginal hand, and I'd much rather bet 40 myself than have it checked to button betting 100 and folded back to me, forcing me to make a decision I don't like, either calling a pot-sized/over-sized bet with only a fair hand or folding that same fair hand against just one "sign of strength" from the button, which comes very often.

4) Why bet again half pot on the turn?

Maybe to amongst other things be able to call a fairly sized raise, giving me more possibilities (such as filling up on the river), being able to gain even more information from him to make the best decision on the river and so forth. If I bet large here, I either take it down, get called and will possibly face a very tough decision over a big pot on the river should a scare card come (as opposed to now when I am keeping the pot fairly small, making folding to a scare card and a huge bet on the river less dramatic) or I am raised and I have no-where to go but in the muck, despite almost certainly having four outs and even remotely possible the best hand. Still, of course, I can't call.

5) I´d call the raise, too

I actually thought I would come under some critizism for that one.

6) I´d fold on the river, too

And that one too, given that I had already called the turn.

But I agree wholeheartedly with you on points 5 and 6! ;-)

lars

Martin Aigner
07-24-2004, 01:33 PM
Lars,

[ QUOTE ]
1) I´m not sure about the call preflop. I´d rather muck it.

With 66.7 big blinds in my stack and most others' and a limper in front of me, I think it's playable. I do however think a case could be made for making it T50 to go, which has a few advantages, deception, more likely to give me position, gives me the initiative, but most importantly gives protection against the players who loves nothing more than to pick up a pot pre-flop after a few limpers with a big raise (even at early levels).

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason why I don´t like the call is that the likehood of a raise behind you is simply too big. I do play lots of 200 buy in too and simply for the fear of a raise I don´t play this sort of hands. Maybe I´m wrong by doing so, but it´s just my personal point of view. I doubt that I would be able to play these hands with +EV. Furthermore playing these hands can cost you more money on the flop/turn/river, and my way of play in early stages of an SnG is simply to avoid this.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Why bet on the turn?

Given question 4, I assume you mean the flop here. I might have the best hand, I think it gives me better information than checking it to a button who will bet often, but will still have me holding a hand I don't want to put too many chips in with. Even if I don't have the best hand, I'd like to see a turn for cheap given that I hold a pair and a double backdoor flush draw. So another reason why I bet the turn is related to question 3, I'd much rather bet 40 myself and get called than to check and have the button bet 100 or something, which is far from unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously my mistake. Of course I meant the flop.

I can see your reasoning for betting small. I think that we simply have a different way to play the early stages of a SnG, since, as posted in point 1, I don´t want to put any more money in with this hand. Of course you might have the best hand here, but with a player behind you you don´t have enough information. Generally I try to avoid to lose 10% of my stack in the 1st or 2nd level, which is exactly what might happen, if you bet out here. Don´t get me wrong, I like your play in a cash game or a tourney with bigger stacks, but not in a SnG with only 1000 chips to start with. Obviously you have a different game plan, and that´s of course OK.

[ QUOTE ]
3) If bet: Why half pot?

It's not quite half pot, it's about 60% of the pot. Well, as a general rule in my NL Holdem game, and more so in tournaments than cashgames, I lean towards betting less than the pot, usually around 2/3's of the pot. On average, I bet even slightly less with my somewhat weaker hands, although I mix this up in a way that makes it very hard to read/exploit.

On this hand, I have a marginal hand, and I'd much rather bet 40 myself than have it checked to button betting 100 and folded back to me, forcing me to make a decision I don't like, either calling a pot-sized/over-sized bet with only a fair hand or folding that same fair hand against just one "sign of strength" from the button, which comes very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

With your small bet there are lots of hands which will call/raise you. Hands e.g. as KQ or the like. Actually, if I had KQ behind you I´d sure would have raised you.

[ QUOTE ]
5) I´d call the raise, too

I actually thought I would come under some critizism for that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you showed weakness on flop and turn (betting about half pot twice) a raise easily can mean that he wants to check the river if not further improved. So I call and expect to be up against 1 pair, which checks behind me. If the other player bets again on the river, it´s too likely that I´m beat. Therefore I muck on the river for a 300 bet.

Best regards

Martin Aigner