Poker Tracker

I am personally against the use of Poker Tracker. I don't feel like explaining but basically I feel it ruins what poker is all about (and takes the fun out of it for me; I have and will continue to use my own judgement, not a program that follows statistical weaknesses of my opponents so I can exploit them). Are there any other players who also feel this way, but feel they are not at a disadvantage against players that use it if they opt not to use Poker Tracker (i.e. they have won consistently at higher limits w/o it)?

[sin808]

[ QUOTE ]
not a program that follows statistical weaknesses of my opponents so I can exploit them

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've missed a big portion of what poker tracker is. Though you can use it for that if you have played a significant enough amount of hands against an opponent. It's the ability to replay hands, and analyze YOUR OWN play that makes it worthwhile. What hands have shown a profit for you, lost money, etc..it's great at helping find leaks in your own game. To exploit weaknesses of your opponents you'd have to have a reasonable sample size from hands played against them to get any valuable information. I think if you've played that many hands against someone, you've already got a good idea about how they play.

Now I do disagree with the use of software like this pokervortex and pokeredge..since it gives a crippling advantage to someone who can interpret and use the data in it to their benefit. It does provide statistical information about players without you ever having to have played a hand against them (or even seeing them sitting at a table before).

[bisonbison]

I am personally against the use of Poker Tracker. I don't feel like explaining...

Well then, thanks for sharing.

[pokerstudAA]

I dont use it as much to determine how my opponents play. Mainly I use PT to determine where I played hands incorrectly or see whether I lost to a bad draw. The replay feature can definately help find leaks. Replaying some hands can be just as fun. If you dont have a huge opponent data base that feature is essentially useless.

[GoSox]

You're against it, but don't feel like explaining. Can you explain why you bothered posting ?

[cnfuzzd]

I think you are wrong. I dont feel like explaining, but you are.

peace

john nickle

I didn't ask for snide comments and sarcasm, I was looking for responses of people's opinions on whether not using PT was a big disadvantage..

"Well then, thanks for sharing. "
yes, thanks for sharing also ??? get a life jerk...

"You're against it, but don't feel like explaining. Can you explain why you bothered posting ? "
I wanted to know if others shared my belief? i thought that was made clear in the last line of my post?

"I think you are wrong. I dont feel like explaining, but you are."
Also, thanks for sharing... but since you're dying to know, I'll EXPLAIN it to YOU. The reason why i didn't want to bother before was because I had posted something similar already..

I believe a majority of poker's skill is derived from reading and adjusting to other players. This means sitting down with complete strangers and trying to extract as much information about them as possible; pas,agg, loose, etc... I find the fact that people use programs now instead of their own judgement is discomforting (also the fact that programs can anonymously follow the playing patterns of opponents). It basically allows people to find statistical weaknesses in their opponents to exploit, and thus transforms online poker into just a repetitive and monotonous video game. But I guess the bottom line is all that matters to people. I won't lie, I like winning too, but I will, just like I always have, use my own brain. That's where I have fun.

soo well.. then.. umm.. john nickle, peace

sin, thanks for your input, I forgot to mention that I feel poker tracker is fine for personal use (improving one's game). I was only against someone using it against other players.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
It basically allows people to find statistical weaknesses in their opponents to exploit, and thus transforms online poker into just a repetitive and monotonous video game. But I guess the bottom line is all that matters to people. I won't lie, I like winning too, but I will, just like I always have, use my own brain. That's where I have fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Taijiro, my friend, I know you've already taken a beating from the forum hooligans (despite specifically not requesting snide comments and sarcasm) and I hate to dogpile on ya, but man o man this a textbook example of thinking like a scrub (http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm).

/mc

haha i understand that scrub thing.. I feel the same way.. but throws were part of the game--an intended design. but having sites like pokeredge that follow my every move aren't.. I'm also not saying it's "cheap" as I have access to the software as well. I'm just saying I think poker online would be better if it could be as close to live as possible w/o these sites.

[astroglide]

you can play on sites that don't support it

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not a program that follows statistical weaknesses of my opponents so I can exploit them

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've missed a big portion of what poker tracker is. Though you can use it for that if you have played a significant enough amount of hands against an opponent. It's the ability to replay hands, and analyze YOUR OWN play that makes it worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I of course do this too, I use it far more for the automatic notes I get on my opponents.

Go play on pacific if you dont want poker tracker notes. I'll gladly take your money there, too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KingSix]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't ask for snide comments and sarcasm, I was looking for responses of people's opinions on whether not using PT was a big disadvantage..

[/ QUOTE ]

Back to RGP with ye!

King

[47outs]

Im sure most can beat the game w/o it. Its just a tool, like many other tools you use to beat the game.

Think of it as your golf bag. Do you want one club for the whole round or 12 clubs.

As it relates to poker, do you want to be just a stellar preflop player? Or do you want post flop skills, hand reading skills, know players tendancys etc etc.

outs

Just another tool,

[bisonbison]

I didn't ask for snide comments and sarcasm

I bet you didn't ask for the sun to come up this morning. But there it was.

yes, thanks for sharing also ??? get a life jerk...

Okay.

I will, just like I always have, use my own brain. That's where I have fun.

Okay.

Have you actually used pokertracker? If there's more to player reads than pre-flop limping and raising, then pokertracker notes don't help you much.

"I bet you didn't ask for the sun to come up this morning. But there it was." Idk bison, i didn't really mind, are you trying to convince me or u? Btw, how's the family/social life?

[bisonbison]

Btw, how's the family/social life?

I've been waiting for someone to ask.

Well, I'm going to a wedding next weekend, which should be fun, even if it's in Maine. I've only met the bride once, but the groom and I were RAs at the same time at college, and it'll be nice to catch up. Other than that, I don't have many summer plans other than my piano lessons and looking for someplace to learn how to box. Sure, I'll be hanging out with friends, but I think you're looking more for the big, granular stuff, not the bits and pieces that fill a day. Oh, I guess Sfer's coming out in August and we'll be hitting some local cardrooms. He's an internet friend, but he's asian so it's not so embarrassing.

My mom's going to England on the seventh for a couple of weeks, and that's good. My brother's new girlfriend just left town after a 3-week visit and they seem to be getting along fine. My sister and her family are still living in Florida, though I think it's pretty clear she wants to move out of state as soon as possible. The kids are tubby, and funny and cute. My dad? Still dead. Has it been three years?

Tai, I'm glad we had this talk, it is was really nice to just open up and share, and I guess I hadn't realized how much my own sarcasm was just a symptom of emotional fatigue. I know you're new here, but maybe we could have these kind of conversations on a regular basis?

How about if you post a lazy or idiotic thread every week, and I'll go out of my way to respond to it? It's fine if you wanna post dumb things more often than that, we all have our gifts, but I can't promise you that I'll be there for every one.

peace

not john nickle

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
find the fact that people use programs now instead of their own judgement is discomforting

[/ QUOTE ]

What a huge, blanket and indefensible statement. Looks like you have a chip on your shoulder that is deforming your judgment.

What makes you think people use Pokertracker "instead of" their own judgment rather than just to supplement their judgment or bounce their judgment against some statistics to look for difference or confirmation?

Further, as other posters have commented and as is obvious to anyone with even slight familiarity with the program, there is a lot more to it than simply giving you some stats on opponents. The majority of good information you get, and get in any reasonable span of time, is going to be on your own play, not the play of others.

Heck, with more than 20,000 hands recorded and almost 4,000 players recorded, I don't have more than 200 hands recorded for more than about 50 of them, and don't have more than 300 recorded for more than 25 of them. I have more than 500 hands recorded for only FIVE of them! And that took 371.65 hours to get.

You get some information on players using Pokertracker, but not an overwhelming amount, and not too quickly either. It's hardly a tool that is going to kill Poker or give anyone a huge unfair advantage.

If you think using Pokertracker means you don't have to use your own brain, you either don't know how to use your brain or how to play poker, or both.

[Monty Cantsin]

I <3 U

/mc

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't ask for snide comments and sarcasm...

[/ QUOTE ]

Few do.

[Bob T.]

You know, it is fun to play with just one club somedays.

[cnfuzzd]

Best. Post. Ever. Not really a post, more of a glimpse at some previously unknown holy gospel of how one should live ones life. The apotheosis of good ideas taking realistic form. You now deserve some sort of cool, three letter abrieviation after your name, just like kong.

peace

really john nickle

never has my name come up so often

[cnfuzzd]

Pish posh. Here it goes.

First, you say that you think that poker should be about developing skills that allow you to "read' people so as to determine which option available to you is most advatagious. However, you are highliting a specific skill, among several, which exist with the game to enable participants to reach the games objective. Which is, namely, to win money. You never offer reasons as to why the new goal of poker should be finding the psychic within all of us. We keep score in one way, and thats with chips.

Second. You also overestimate the strength of pokertracker. if you can find me the post in these forums where someone was able to put someone exactly on two specific cards because of one distant hand that was played long ago, i would be amazed. PT is mostly used to monitor one's play, and also to get a general idea of how people play. Would you be upset if someone was writing down all the info that pokertracker was collecting? That would be ludicrous.

Finally, i think you have blurred the lines between "poker" and "live poker," simply because for so long those were the same thing. When you spend several hours in the same cardroom, you come to know the regulars, and not-so-regulars, by face and name, voice and action. You develop those abilities to read them, and thus learn how to read other strangers, not just by betting patterns, but by whole body observation. In an internet cardroom, you get nothing but betting patterns. And those betting patterns are tied to nothing but a 4-16 character name that probably doesnt make any sense to you. How are you supposed to come to "know" the people you are playing against? The advent of internet poker is a new frontier, and with it comes new facets of the game. Would you try to stop someone from sitting with a guide to starting hands based on position, and on odds sheet based on number of outs, and playing at party poker? That would also be ludicris.

I think you are taking one aspect of the game, namely reading skills, and trying to make it the *whole* game. The problem is, that is only one aspect of the game, and one that doesn't even apply in a large porportion of the games that are played on the internet. Low Limit games on Empire are not played based mostly on specific player reads beyond the very general (maniac, rock). Even some live games, namely stud, don't rely as much on reading skills so much as a solid base of mathematical knowledge. To close, consider this: Who would you bet on in a full .50/1 ringgame at party, the newb with pokertracker, or the newb with a solid knowledge of odds and probablities.

See, it took awhile. I didnt feel like it earlier.

peace

The One And Only John Nickle

bisons post is still better.

and yes i cant spell

[Sooga]

[ QUOTE ]
He's an internet friend, but he's asian so it's not so embarrassing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now just what in the hell does THAT mean?

[bisonbison]

Now just what in the hell does THAT mean?

ahahahahah. I was wondering when someone was going to complain. Don't worry. We're not actually friends.

blarg, sin already clarified what u're saying

I agree and can see that now

I see now that poker tracker doesn't give as much of an edge as I percieved. Finding this out was one of the intentions of me posting this to begin with. I'm more against sites like pokeredge.

[Nemesis]

Wow this is the second thread tonight that's made me LOL... good job Bison.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
I see now that poker tracker doesn't give as much of an edge as I percieved. Finding this out was one of the intentions of me posting this to begin with. I'm more against sites like pokeredge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm against sites like Poker Edge too, and I'm also against Poker Office because it can capture vast databases of hands without the user having to invest into playing at the table - a feature that I think gives the owner of Poker Office an unfair advantage. Do a search on Poker Office, and you can see the flame baiting threads about this so far. I tried to get the management at Party Poker to look into this, but the tech support team is so ass backwards they didn't understand that Poker Office is diferent from Poker Tracker. Such is life....

in da club /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BusterStacks]

Um... some people play this game for money, you know.

[GuidoSarducci]

That perfectly fine.

I prefer keeping notes on my opponents and learning their tendencies over the long haul.

I'm an educated man, but I'm not Rain Man. I can't remember the 12,000 players I've come in contact with during my poker playing, so I choose to keep notes. That I keep notes with a program vs. a notebook is irrelevent, except that the computer takes much better notes.

You play your game, I'll play mine.

[GuidoSarducci]

NT

[checkmate36]

I would never use anything that would give me the slightest advantage over another player im at a table with. I will be purchasing PT very soon. LOL
Check