Simple yet puzzling

[Jason Strasser]

You hold a mid pocket pair, 77-99, blinds are either in first or second level (party). Its folded to you on the button or in the CO.

Raise or limp?

There are good arguments for both.

-Jason

[Roman]

raise.

I like to take control of the hand, plus there is a very good chance im ahead.

[durron597]

I just call. If I'm playing it to have the best hand, I would raise; but chances are I will win the blinds, or someone will call and I will bet out the flop and take it there, or they will pair their overcards and I have to shut it down. I would say that the latter happens often enough that I would rather limp, play it for set value only and try to win a bigger pot the times I hit my set, and if I don't hit I minimize chip loss to 1xtiny BB.

[PrayingMantis]

It's not possible to adress this problem fully without relation to the table's dynamics, and your specific position. Thing is, early on, you usually don't have any significant read.

1. Limping - against players who tend to make most of their mistakes post-flop, i.e, playing passively PF but over-playing their hands with every piece of flop they caught, limping is certainly better. Also, if you know that the players behid you are simply loose PF, love to see flops, and/or very aggressive PF, you can limp and fold with your mediocre pairs, if someone just decides to raise big behid you, and moreover: you don't achieve much by raising, since it's too tough to narrow such a field.

2. Raising - against more observant opponents, who might think you are trying to take down the blinds. If you get called and hit your hand, it will be very hard to put you on it. I love hitting my set after raising with my PP PF, because if my opponent hit their over-card, they'll have a very hard time getting away from their hand. OTOH, even if you don't hit, in many cases (especially if you have position), you can sense your opponent's weakness and take it down. It will happen many times, even when over-cards hit, since you already have a made-hand. Your opponents will hit only X% of the time.


These are only some brief and general thoughts. As much as I go deeper into the game, I realize how important is also the difference between 77 and 99, for instance. I'll raise more often with 99 than with 77. Actually, with 77 there will be cases when folding is a better option (77 UTG early on is very far from a big hand. In certain tables it is a loser) but there are cases where 99 is virtually a monster.

[Martin Aigner]

Actually I can´t see too many reasons to call first in on the button or CO with 77-99. On the other side, I can see way more reasons why one would prefer to raise, therefore:

RAISE (this is not even close)

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[patrick dicaprio]

i always am surprised when players say they will take control of a hand by raising. i am not sure why that is a valid reason for raising, if it were you could raise with any hand. with low blinds you wont be taking control of anything.

Pat

[Martin Aigner]

Taking controll doesn´t necessarily mean to win only the blinds. When you raise with 77 and the flop comes AK5 you will be able to pick it up pretty often. Had you only called lots of hands will bet out only since they don´t expect you to have an A or K.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

[Michael Davis]

In cases where folding 77 is really best, then deciding to call or raise with 99 can't be right by much. I'm not disputing that the difference is there, but we're not talking major differences.

I honestly don't see where 99 could be a monster but 77 isn't. If you are facing a big raise, there is only one real possible hand in between them.

-Michael

[PrayingMantis]

Correction:

After writing my reply, I've noticed the OP is about 77-99 in the *button or CO*, after it's folded to you. In this case raising is usually much better than limping, IMO.

[PrayingMantis]

Yes, maybe by saying "monster" in relataion to 99 vs. 77 I have exaggerated. But against certain opponents, weak-loose ones, I'll be ready to go pretty far with my 99, as opposed to 77. Of course there is "only one hand" in between, but notice that this means (significantly) more flops that are great for 99, but pretty tricky for 77 (exactly how many is a question for the probability forum). All the 9-high and 8-high flops are great for 99, somewhat risky for 77 (against very loose players).

And of course: you're ahead of 88 AND 77, when you hold 99. The added value of winning against 77 and 88 when you hold 99, is important. It's the same as the added value of winning with QQ against JJ and TT. This is not a minor factor, against a loose opposition.

Generally, I'd feel much more confident w/99. It's close, but not very close.

[pokerstudAA]

I would definately raise those 7's on the button. Mabye 2x the blinds but probably 3x. It adds some deception if you hit the set. You may also pick up the blinds. There is nothing I like more than getting a AQ7 flop and taking all the $ from the blind with an ace that thought I was just trying to steal his blind.

[stripsqueez]

limp

if i raise i might get the blinds - that doesnt excite me as it has little bearing on my prospects of winning - if i get called after i raise i may bluff at a pot but i'm not going to commit to anything without a big hand so i dont really like being called

just like the blinds dont interest me it doesnt trouble me to shell out a BB at this stage - i welcome the customers because this was only going to get serious if i hit and then i want runners

despite all that i still think raise is an ok plan

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ZeeJustin]

Raise and auto-bet the flop. It's not close.

[durron597]

Ok, you say this, but can you give a reason? Just saying to do something without giving a reason can hardly improve our play....

[Eder]

I like to raise 3xBB here...although often getting called I like the deception here...often if the flop comes low rags like 6 7 10...if the BB holds perhaps K10 I'm sure I'll end up with a good chunk of his stack, since I entered pot with standard steal raise I'm sure he would put me on Ax or so...

If I miss easy fold

I think for opponent to put me on middle pp he would have to see much larger raise here as no one really wants to see a flop with this hand...jmnoobo

[fnurt]

I don't get the point of limping. If the blinds have trash hands then you're never going to make money off them unless they get a big hand, so take their blinds now. And if they have one overcard, or a crappy hand with 2 overcards, it surely can't be a good idea to give them a free shot at making a hand.

[Jason Strasser]

The whole reason I posted this was because all raising does, most of the time, is allow you to steal the blinds. At this point, the blinds are not worth stealing. Also, opponents are likely to play back at you if you raise, and you'd be forced to lay down a hand like 77.

I guess my follow-up question is: What is the cutoff? And after the cutoff do you limp or fold? I can't imagine 33 is a raising hand from the button.

[stupidsucker]

I raise 3-4x the BB every time here with 77. If I pick up the blinds then I won, and I dont care. I find it very unlikely someone plays back at me hard here.

Lets look at each situation and see what could happen.

Raising..
Someone could play back at you, but probably only if they have a strong hand. If they do you are not out very much here.

You could win the blinds... Oh well Ive won the blinds with AA and I move on to the next hand.

A lot of BBs will call your raise with almost anything. If they bet big and there are 2 overcards then you have to let it go. Loss is still hardly anything.

If they catch a piece and you have made a set then you are probably going to bust someone and take a huge chip lead. There is enough chips in the pot to have some action.


If you limp.

There is no money in the pot. This looks weak to me, and someone is more likely to play back at you with a medium hand, and you may have to let it go. Nothing lost nothing gained here.

There is zero chance of just picking up the blinds here (unless the BB times out I guess)

If you flop a set there is no chips in the pot to make it worth it for you to make any chips even if they do catch a small piece.

Summary.

I raise, and play almost any flop aggressivly if it checks back to me. To answer the other question. (Where is the cut off)? I honestly probably play 22 the same way. I am just not worried about losing 150 chips at level 1 or 2. Its a loss I can spring back from easy, and it pays me off quite a bit. I have very few early finishes 41% ITM, and I dont face being short stacked too often when making the bubble or ITM. Note that I play 20's I have no idea how I would play this at a 200. I can only imagine you would get played back at more often there.