Terrible play? Or standard?

[MoreWineII]

I don't have my hand history handy at the moment, so this is off the top of my head.

Hero is the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. 4 limpers to me, I call, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, BB bets, 3 callers to me. I call. SB folds.

5 to the turn which is the 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB again bets and still we don't lose anyone.

River is the 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets again, 2 callers to me, I raise, everyone calls.

BB proceeds to rail about how badly I played the hand (I found out later he had J8 - whoopty friggin' do!) I think it's fairly standard. The flop brought me backdoor straight and flush draws as well as *possible* K outs.

With these callers, the *bad* play would be to muck my hand here, no?

[sthief09]

getting 11-1 on the flop, with only one player to act behind you, you can make this call. 1.5 outs for the flush, another ~2 outs for a pair, and I guess .5 for a straight draw, makes 4 outs. throw in implied odds and I don't see anything wrong with calling the flop.

[MoreWineII]

This was one of the most passive tables I've been at recently. I thought the likelyhood of a raise happening at any point during the hand pretty remote.

I figured I would get to see as many cards as I wanted to for the cheapest price possible, which also factored into my thinking (as well as be called if and when I hit and raised).

I miss that table already. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[tech]

Not only do I call, but also I think an argument can be made for raising as the proper play.

[sthief09]

it's funny because if I were at the table with you, I probably would've thought you played it terribly. But when I broke it down, it looked good to me.

[MoreWineII]

Can you go into that a little further, Tech?

[onegymrat]

Hi MoreWine,

Your flop call is of dubious value. You have nothing. You will slowly bleed your chips away without even knowing it with calls like this. Had there been a pf raise, then your call may have better value. On the other hand, you wouldn't cold-call a pf raise with K7s. The turn call is obvious. Being that you hit your hand, congratulations.

[StellarWind]

You have nominally 3 outs for the king, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, and 1 for the two-way backdoor straight. Needless to say you have major across-the-board quality issues with these draws and need to take a serious discount.

You are getting good implied odds because BB is betting through the field toward you. You also have the button with its promise of an occasional no-particular-reason-at-all free card.

Do you trust SB not to attack your exposed back?

Raising is self-destructive. A free card has little value if you fail to improve on the turn. Certainly a 3-bet would be a disaster.

I accept your call and reject BB's disparaging remarks. I also have no problem with a discreet fold. Your outs are cheesy and will often lead you into a painful second-best hand. Your equity in this pot is best viewed with a microscope.

[MoreWineII]

Great posts.

For the record, I don't make many calls like this. In this particular hand, there were a couple of perceptions that convinced me that a call was in order.

They were a.) that the table was incredibly passive (check-calling stations). I didn't fear a check-raise from the small blind at all. In fact, I don't think I saw more than one or two check-raises by the other players in the hour and a half that I played at the table. And b.) I sincerely believed that if I did hit my hand, that at least a couple of players would pay off my raise.

Good thinking or faulty thinking?

[tech]

Sure. Sorry, I should have expanded before. First let me say that I really do not think raising is better than calling because of your position relative to the flop bet -- just that an argument could be made. I am pretty sure that both are better than folding, however. Look at flop quiz 7 in SSHE.

Arguments for calling:
--you are closing the action
--most people won't fold for one more bet, so you are unlikely to drive anyone out

Arguments for raising:
--probably buy a free card on the turn
--might get a better K to fold

[Haupt_234]

Your preflop call is fine.

I don't like your flop call, though. You seem to be looking very hard for a reason to play the hand when you should be looking for a reason to drop it.

The pot isn't large enough to chase the backdoor straight and flush draws. Since it is a passive table, it is almost certain that someone has the jack. So you are drawing to 3 outs with your king, assuming someone isn't holding a king with a better kicker. Also, add in the fact that anyone holding KJ has you counterfeited, and I would be folding my hand out of turn.

Haupt_234

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
First let me say that I really do not think raising is better than calling

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a free card is useless here. I would want to see the turn for as cheaply as possible If a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5, or king doesn't come on the turn, it is a hand that can be easily folded. For these reasons, I don't think it is worth investing double the bets in an attempt to see both the turn and river with so little outs.

Haupt_234

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
it's funny because if I were at the table with you, I probably would've thought you played it terribly. But when I broke it down, it looked good to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is funny, since I had the same thought. I never really put to much thought into backdoor flush and str8 outs before, but this is a good hand to do so. When you factor that in with the implied odds you're getting if you hit and I think that tips the scales to a flop call. Damn that Ed Miller, he's making me play more hands post flop which is intern increasing my BB/hr. win-rate. What am I supposed to do with all this extra money?!?!

[MoreWineII]

Some say call, some say fold. Next time I get into this situation, my head is going to explode. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular hand, there were a couple of perceptions that convinced me that a call was in order.

They were a.) that the table was incredibly passive (check-calling stations). I didn't fear a check-raise from the small blind at all. In fact, I don't think I saw more than one or two check-raises by the other players in the hour and a half that I played at the table. And b.) I sincerely believed that if I did hit my hand, that at least a couple of players would pay off my raise.

Good thinking or faulty thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
These are valid reasons to play. It is important that the SB not checkraise you. It is important that you get paid if you make something. It would help if these passive souls would check the turn around once in a while.

You need these things for your call to be borderline.

You mentioned the some-would-fold and some-would-call posts. I actually said go either way. At some point we are splitting pennies in the EV calculations and this hand is about there. It really doesn't matter. Play this one for fun and to be a good-ol-boy. Play it to put BB on tilt when you hit your hand /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Or fold to reduce your variance, save your energy, and focus on another table you might be playing.