AK against multiple opponents

[Meatmaw]

If I have AKo and the betting preflop is such that I *know* my opponents do not have AA or KK and they are all-in for pretty much my whole stack (about even), I don't want to butt heads and play, right? Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks.

[NotMitch]

That really depends on how much dead money is in the pot, how many players are left, what place you are in and you reads on the specific players.

So the answer is maybe, but if the range of hands you put them on is not AA or KK calling isnt ever going to be all that bad. You are never a big dog and can often be a good sized favorite (dominated A), but it is highly situation dependent.

NM

[ECondreras]

This is a very general question that would be better answered with more specifics (i.e.# of opponents left, what level in the tournament, stack sizes, etc.). But generally speaking, AK against multiple opponents doesn't do as well as against a single opponent. Also, early in a tournament, I rarely, if ever, CALL an all-in with AK.

[Dominic]

Well, it's completely dependent on the size of your stack and how early it is in the tourney...if you're short-stacked, you call all-in...based on what you've said, you're up against no better than a QQ, right? So with AK you want to be able to see all five cards...at worse, you're pretty much a coin-flip against any PP and you're a favorite against any other hands...if your AK is suited, naturally it's even stronger...

now if you still have plenty of chips I think it's a fold situation...

[pzhon]

AK is fine in a multiway pot. If no one has a pair, you have the best made hand, and if no one has AA or KK or another AK you have a great draw, too.

[DonT77]

EC, this may be just my opinion, but I think you are missing a lot of +EV if you are folding AK to all-ins early in tourneys if you play in the <$50 buy-in on-line MTTs.

Here's my reasoning, based mostly on observation / empirical evidence - with AK you will be dominating other Ax hands about half the time and you'll be almost a coin flip against 22-QQ about the other half of the time. You're a big dog vs AA or KK, but the chances of those holdings is diminished by your holding AK. I'd say AK all-in is a winner on PS / PP MTTs more than 60% of the time. Plus, I would rather take the chance on busting out / doubling up early in an MTT for 3 reasons - if I double up early that will enhance my ability to run over the weaker players, if I bust out of the money - I'd rather do it early, and in the early rounds you see a lot more loose all-in plays by the crazies.

Anybody else concur, disagree?

[Vuron00]

OK Don... nothing personal here.

I only found this site a week ago, but 1 thing really amazes me. About 95% of the posters on here claim to be tight players, but almost every answer to any question contains the words "push" or "all-in".

I, completely, disagree with your reasoning to call in this situation where you say you "would rather take the chance on bustin out/doubling up early". There is no reason to take a "chance" at all. If you simply fold here, you still have an average chip stack and if you believe in your ability to play and win pots, there is no reason to bust out early on a coin flip. If you plan on cashing a check, how many coin flips would you have to win? Remember, you only have to lose 1 to put an end to your run.

Save your chips and use them for when you have a made hand.

[DonT77]

I appreciate your opinion, but in order to get to the final table you have to multiply your chips at some point - so if you are dominating half of your opponents holdings and coin-flipping the otherhalf, then I think this is a good opportunity to double-up. Unless you want to play ultra-tight and wait for AA or KK to bust somebody out, but then you'll more often blind out or get short stacked and have to go all-in with cards less than AK. This is gambling, so why not push your chips in when you figure to have the best of it?

[patrick dicaprio]

generally that is correct. AKo is a bad hand to call all in raises with but it is good to push in with.

Pat

[ECondreras]

Hey Don,

I play the PP $10+1 single table SnG's. The reason I don't call all-in's early on with AK is all based or risk and reward. The reward of doubling up in that spot is not worth the risk of busting out early. I can still make it to the money against these terrible players without doubling up early. Am I a great player? No. Is the competition pretty pathetic? Yes.

-Ed-

[River2Pair]

Another point about AK against multiple raisers...

If your opponents hold AJ, AQ, and QQ, and maybe throw a KT in there (we are talking about party, right?), your hand is all but dead. I mean, you gotta think, what are all these people calling with?

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

If your opponents hold AJ, AQ, and QQ, and maybe throw a KT in there (we are talking about party, right?), your hand is all but dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dead? AK is a favorite here:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=417027
cards EV
A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.204
Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 0.552
A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 0.137
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.028
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 0.080

Par is an EV of 0.20. AK is still a favorite even with 3 outs gone.

Here are two other examples:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=417037
cards EV
A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.287
A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 0.038
Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.316
T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.185
8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 0.174

Several pairs aren't much more of a threat than one pair in a 5-way pot.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=417050
cards EV
A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.374
A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 0.118
A/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.195
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 0.107
Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 0.206

It's not certain that someone has a pair. If no one has a pair, AK is usually a big favorite.

Of course, AKs does even better since it makes a nut flush about 7% of the time.

[Jsb]

i'm not sure what i do in this situation, but i lean towards fold, because it seems to me theres a very good chance at least one is holding a pocket pair. if i somehow can be certain this is not the case, then i call. if one of them have a pocket pair, those who don't hold any pocket pairs are usually holding some of my outs. if noone holds a PP then that is awesome, but devastating otherwise of course.
Don, i was more curious as to why you bring MTT strategy into this. i think this is a very different situation in a MTT than in a SNG. i am not all that familiar with MTTs, but i would assume you are correct that you want to double up early in a tourney, but doubling up early isn't nearly as important in a SNG. the early stages in a SNG is not a good place at all to be taking a coinflip or anything like that, being shortstacked on the bubble is anything but a death sentence. are you saying that the strategey for MTTs and SNG early stages are the same, or is this a mixup? i could be wrong in how i'm looking at this, that is why i ask

[River2Pair]

So, hypothetically, playing this hand face upo you'd call QQ's raise seeing all these hands between you and the raiser? Is this assuming that there is a side pot?

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
So, hypothetically, playing this hand face upo you'd call QQ's raise seeing all these hands between you and the raiser? Is this assuming that there is a side pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your question? What are the stack sizes, how much is in the pot, etc.?

If there is no dead money in the pot and the QQ has the AK covered, it might be wrong to get involved as a very small favorite. If the player with QQ has a short stack, then it may be right by a lot to get involved, since AK is a big favorite in the side pots, and a small favorite in the main pot.

To repeat: It is wrong to think that AK is dead in multi-way pots. Even in the example you constructed to show the dangers of a multi-way pot, AK was still a favorite. Here's another example (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=814105&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1) of the same mistake.