10-20 Binion's

Holding QJo on the button


3 limpers, I limp, sb calls, bb raises, all call. 6 big bets in pot, 6 handed.


Flop: K, 10, 3 rainbow.


sb checks, bb bets, fold, call, fold, I raise, sb folds, bb reraises, call, call. 3 handed. 9 big bets in pot.


Turn: K, 10, 3, (9) no flush draw


best card I could get. bb bets, call, raise, call, call, still 3 handed


river K, 10, 3, 9, (K)


check, check, check


Comments would be appreciated.

If the BB is not overly tricky, I'd bet. If I were in BB's shoes and filled up, I'd usually bet. I might trap the guy in the middle for a bet, get you both to call, or middle guy calls, you raise, I three-bet, whoopee! Going for a check-raise is asking to show down a monster for no money on the river.


So if he's going to bet a full-house, you have the nuts when he checks; bet.


As a third order factor, that you have two opponents left after all this implies that their full house cards are tied up with each other. I expect one of 'em made trip kings. The other may have gotten two pair counterfeited or had the case king.


Regards, Lee

I play it the exact same way up to the river.. but I'd bet the river..

Lee,


Thanks for your very perceptive comments.


BB preflop bet and bet and raise on the flop indicated to me that he had one of the following hands:


KK, 10 10, AA, or AK


the middle position caller worried me. There was nothing on the board on the turn except the straight.

His range of hands included AK, K-10, even the low set, 3-3.


I had exhibited strength on both the flop and turn, and they may have even checked a non-nut full house, intending to check and call.


Between the two of them, it looked likely that one of them had outdrawn my straight.

Since you have shown so much aggression, this is spot where you can probably bet and fold to a raise. If one of the opponents might raise with AK or KQ, then you'd have to call, but I still like the bet.


It is not too likely the BB raises with TT in this spot. KK is something to worry about (I way), and AA and AK pretty likely. Would he not 3 bet KK on the turn?


The other limper hung in there with something, and given that he never raised, KT, K9 or a set are not very likely, though possible. His most likely hands are KJ and KQ.


Dan Z.

There are only two issues and the cards only get in the way. 1) How often would the BB check a full house? 2) How often will someone pay off? Looks to me like the answers are 1) very rarely 2) very often. Bet the river.


The player in the middle, if he's anything like normal, how can he have a full house? That would mean he either flopped or turned two pair or a set, and with perfect position to put two-bet pressure on you, on the flop and on the turn, he didn't. On top of that, he was checked to on the river, with one player behind, and checked.


::: loud buzzer sound :::


He's out of the running.


The big blind. Let's review his pertinent choices ...


1) He checked the river


2) He checked the river


3) He checked the river


With all that frenzy going on, if he can pop it preflop, jack it on the flop, lead on the turn, and then improve on the river to a full house, and then check, then gawd love him. He handed me a bet so I gave it back. No problem.


As always it's player dependant but to a lesser degree than usual because it's exceedingly rare for a player to fill up and check in a pot like this at mid-limit. I don't think the rundown of his possible or likely holdings, based on preflop or on the flop or turn, have any influence in making the best choice on the river because you must factor in the river check and that forces a drastic narrowing of his hand-range.


Tommy

thanks all,


The comments were very perceptive and good. You guys are good.


BB had AA and MP had KQ.


turns out the BB was drawing dead and the MP needed a J on the river to tie.


I got some comments about my river check, but I still think I got lucky that neither one had a set or K two pair on the turn.


However, the consensus seems to be that I should have bet the river.

what's the point of raising the flop? the big blind raised preflop, so there's little/no chance you aren't getting 3bet here. you don't have the best of it, it's impossible to win on the flop, and you're not getting a free card. i probably would have bet the end too.

I have a 30%chance of making a straight with two cards to come and three other hands still in the game at the time of my raise. Also I stand to gain a lot of information.

raising out of the blinds is information enough, and you're almost guaranteeably facing a reraise. you're losing ev by raising.

Ni Han, Sir!! Glad you won it.


A couple river notes. First, it's my opinion that much of the difference between a 1 sb/hr winner and a 1 bb/hr winner lies in how often they value bet the river. In both cases (since both players are winners), they are going to be going to the river with the best hand much more often than their opponents. Second, when the bb/hr player IS in the lead at the river, his hand will be farther ahead of the field (on average) than his opponent's hands when they're ahead on the river. In other words, when YOU go to the river with top pair, it's usually because you've been driving the action AND because you've got a kicker to be proud of. When your opponents go to the river with top pair, it could be something like K6s, J7o, whatever. So, while they go to the river while in the lead more often per hour than you, you tend to have better holdings when you're in the same spot.


Follow? Probably not. It's late, and my writing here suffers from a paucity of concision. But, what all this amounts to is that you're going to have a strong hand more often at the river than youropponents, which means you will have MANY MORE opportunities to value bet. And bet you should--particularly when it's checked to you. As a rule, with two or fewer opponents, I bet all top-pair-good-kicker and better hands, provided that there isn't a four flush or four straight on the board. You'd be amazed at how often people will find an excuse to call you.


The reason value betting the river is such a crucial part of your game is that, as a tight pre-flop player, you have a chance to do so with a much higher percentage of your hands than your opponents. Yet, I think it's one of the most overlooked aspects of the game. Ever notice how many posts here center around a hero trying to decide if they should muck an overpair on the turn when raised? That's because of the hands we play a unusually high percentage of them are overpairs. It's a situation we seem to 'constantly' find ourselves in. And while the same could be said of having a strong-but-not-invincible hand on the river, it seems that this situation doesn't get nearly as much consideration.

I probably would have bet on the River, figuring (perhaps incorrectly, as seems to be likely these days) that a Full would have bet right off, fearing that I would check my straight.

Look, if the MP has a boat, he sure did play it like a chimp. You've got to rule out the possibility he's full when deciding whether or not to bet the river.


The BB can only have filled up with T/T or 9/9, as there's no reason in the world to put him on quad kings (highly unlikely) or K/T or K/9 (preflop raise), right?


And how likely is it that he raised preflop with 99 or TT? There were 5 callers ahead of him, and he's out of position.


Now here's the kicker: What do opponents hold?

It sure seems like they both have calling hands, oh, say KQ and KJ maybe, huh?


At least one of 'em's got a calling hand, and it sure don't look like you're going to get jacked, so...


Bet your hand! It takes too damned long to get a good hand in this game. Bet!