Good lay down or way to weak?

[stupidsucker]

Hand for the Replayer (http://www.tightpoker.com/replayer/replayer.zip)

***** Hand History for Game 775321233 *****
30/60 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 4828599) - THU JUL 22 21:06:16 EDT 2004
Table Table 13798 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: saudidc (745)
Seat 4: dman55 (1150)
Seat 5: staceeee (1615)
Seat 6: padula777 (1225)
Seat 7: ViolentVegan (980)
Seat 8: rroyrag (585)
Seat 10: Vrel_sz (1700)
ViolentVegan posts small blind (15)
rroyrag posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Vrel_sz [ Jd, Jh ]
Vrel_sz raises (100) to 100
saudidc raises (170) to 170
<< OK Im not liking the min reraise here
dman55 folds.
staceeee folds.
padula777 folds.
ViolentVegan folds.
rroyrag folds.
Vrel_sz calls (70)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, 4s, 3d ]
<< Nice flop, lets bet out a little and see what happens
Vrel_sz bets (125)
saudidc raises (250) to 250
<< Another min reraise.. Am I in trouble? Should I fold here or see the next card for cheap?
Vrel_sz calls (125)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3c ]
Vrel_sz checks.
saudidc bets (325)
saudidc is all-In.
<< What do you think???
Vrel_sz folds.
Creating Main Pot with $1210 with saudidc
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1210
Board: [ 8d 4s 3d 3c ]
saudidc balance 1210, bet 745, collected 1210, net +465
dman55 balance 1150, didn't bet (folded)
staceeee balance 1615, didn't bet (folded)
padula777 balance 1225, didn't bet (folded)
ViolentVegan balance 965, lost 15 (folded)
rroyrag balance 555, lost 30 (folded)
Vrel_sz balance 1280, lost 420 (folded)

I went on to win this tourney BTW.. I was torn on pushing on him on the flop and calling his bet there, but everything inside me told me he had a huge pp, and I have lost with JJ too many times.

Did my experiance save me chips or just make me think too hard?

[nopants]

Not that I have a lot to offer in the way of analysis, but I can't even read this to follow it and learn from it.

Get thee to Bison's Hand Converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi) and re-post legibly.

Please.

[stupidsucker]

Did you even try to use the replayer?
But just for you..

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed)

MP1 (t745)
MP2 (t1150)
CO (t1615)
Button (t1225)
SB (t980)
BB (t585)
Hero (t1700)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t170</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t70.

Flop: (t385) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t250</font>, Hero calls t125.

Turn: (t885) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t325 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1210

[nopants]

I don't think it's a weak laydown at all. You're likely up against someone who's got a better pocket pair or has a set/full house. They've shown strength on every street, I'd lay it down.

But I'm still learning, so I'm interested to hear what other people have to say.

Also, I didn't use the replayer because I was at work and can't install programs on the work system - much easier to view hands in the webpage. I suspect that there are others in similar situations, or just don't want to install 3rd party viewers on their own systems...

[ECondreras]

That whole hand reeks of Aces. I have seen them played that way a ton of times.

[HighStack]

Raising JJ pre-flop 7-handed is something I would never do anymore, and for this exact chip loss reason. Let me say I've lost more money on that hand than any other probably. Would never have raised pre-flop or called MP1's raise. No way no how, I would smell A's/K's/Q's too, or at least 1/2 the pair onhand and a mean river. But that's just me..... Congrats on taking home the win just the same. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[DarrenX]

Highstack- true, it reeks of aces, but you wouldn't call the min re-raise to see if you hit your set? I'd think the implied odds are there...

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

I think this is a tough call. I have seen many players play AA the way this guy did, but I have also seen AK played this way. I think I could have played this either way and it would depend on how aggressive the bad guy had been in earlier hands -- these are the decisions I often get wrong, particularly online. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

In retrospect, you won the tournament so it was a good lay down.

[HighStack]

[ QUOTE ]
Highstack- true, it reeks of aces, but you wouldn't call the min re-raise to see if you hit your set? I'd think the implied odds are there...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd pay 30 to possibly see the flop, but not 170....at least not without more of a chip lead. It's just not my style anymore...to each his own.

[Sam T.]

This strikes me as one of those marginal hands that can get you into real trouble. You might be ahead, but you could also be pretty close to dead. Walk away and you'll have forgotten about the hand within ten minutes. Call, get shown the Aces you knew where there, and you'll steam about it forever.

As to the idea one poster suggested of calling to see if you hit your set due to implied odds: Nonsense.

He's a 20:1 dog to hit a J on the turn, and has to call a t125 raise . Even if he busted Saudic (which is no guarantee), he can't make t2500 chips, 'cause neither of them have that many. If he honestly believes he is behind a higher pair, he HAS to fold.

[DarrenX]

"As to the idea one poster suggested of calling to see if
you hit your set due to implied odds: Nonsense. "

I was referring to calling preflop min reraise, not additional flop/turn bets.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising JJ pre-flop 7-handed is something I would never do anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this completly. If I didn't raise preflop then I don't know where I stand. I always raise about 3x the BB with JJ because someone with QQ-AA almost ALWAYS reraises. If no one re-raises me I feel conifident to push on a lower board. It was my raise preflop that made him do the min re-raise preflop and set the precedent for this lay down to begin with. I have to limp in at least, and that is WEAK. If I limp and he min raises Have to call, and if I do that I probably push on the flop and lose big if he does have the aces.

The reason I even posted this is because 3 people at the table yelled at me. One accused me of colluding with the guy. Also this made the player in question think I was weak as hell(because I think he a typical SnG fish) I also think he was steaming that I didnt pay him off. Just a few hands later I pushed on a low flop with a pair/inside draw, and he called ALL IN with an open end draw. I took it down.

[ECondreras]

I think you can play JJ pre flop either way, and that's just what I do to vary my play. I do think that JJ is one of the toughest hands to play and one that I have screwed up many times in the past (post flop).

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
"As to the idea one poster suggested of calling to see if you hit your set due to implied odds: Nonsense. "



I was referring to calling preflop min reraise, not additional flop/turn bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite right. Never mind. I hope I didn't offend.

[stupidsucker]

I agree fully that JJ just might be one of the hardest... if not the hardest hand to play correctly in NL poker.

Sooo many over play it. (I have been guilty). This is a hand where getting reads can make/break you. I am pleased that you agree I made a good lay down, and maybe I could have even layed this down on the flop, but I thought calling another 125 to see the turn was worth it.

I leap for joy everytime my KK goes heads up against JJ, and they whine that this always happens to them when they have a "Big Pair".. Riiiiiiggght. Thanks for playing.

[DarrenX]

No problem, Sam- it's cool /images/graemlins/cool.gif