An interesting development...

[Bill Smith]

BB is LAG, no read on UTG.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero... &lt;SNIP&gt;

[Malarky]

Why did you stay past the flop?

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you stay past the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you stay past the flop?

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The flop call was a bit light, but with no preflop aggression I felt the 5 outs were probably good. I realize it was only 7.5:1 pots odds and I really should have 8:1, but implied odds and knowing BB would bet any piece of it, yadda yadda, should I still fold?

[Nemesis]

You would have felt comfortable if the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif had came instead of the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif At best you would have to check/call it down I think. I say you have closer to 4 outs than 5, making it a clear fold.

[imitation]

I raise this flop against a LAG who might just bet at an A he might 3bet and get UTG to fold. Maybe i'm too aggressive, on the other hand if I respect the BB I fold, but I don't think you are neccesarily behind on this flop.

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
You would have felt comfortable if the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif had came instead of the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif At best you would have to check/call it down I think. I say you have closer to 4 outs than 5, making it a clear fold.

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I don't disagree that an 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif would be uncomfortable, but I'm also down to 2 opponents. The chances of one of them holding 2 clubs isn't as great as when I'm against the typical 5-6 on the flop. I admit, it's still iffy.

Of course, what I was originally looking for is how to proceed when it is 2 bets to me when I do hit my 2-pair.

[kenewbie]

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Why did you stay past the flop?

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Because he is closing the action in position for a single bet with 5 outs that more often than not gives him the winning hand.

k

[cartoonsoldier]

I think he is behing on the flop but I am not too sure about the turn, without the read on UTG. If UTG is the typical "I play any Ace, etc" he might be beat by a higher two pair. It is also possible he has 78.

I think you can raise here, and it UTG caps, check-call the river.

[Danenania]

Think you have to raise the flop here. You're not too worried about BB and how UTG reacts to the raise gives a lot of information about his hand. He might be playing virtually anything figuring it's better than the crazy BB's hand. Raising the flop also gives you a better idea of where you're at vs. UTG on the turn if you miss. If he shows further aggression after your flop raise you can figure he has your pair of 7's beat.

Since you didn't raise the flop though, and since you hit one of your outs on the turn, I think you really have to 3-bet here. UTG could be raising anything decent as an isolation raise against the BB. He probably figures you for some kind of draw or weak hand since you just called the flop. If it gets capped, just call down.

[Danenania]

Don't forget even if the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif happens to give someone a flush, which is unlikely, Hero still has 4 outs to a boat redraw on the river. I think 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif is a pretty clean out here. At least 3/4 an out if not better.

[cartoonsoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not too worried about BB and how UTG reacts to the raise gives a lot of information about his hand.

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What if he calls and raises the turn again. What if he raises, do you throw away your hand?

I would like to point out to one of Ed Miller's beauty post about "Raising to get information":

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=523282&amp;page=0&amp;view=expand ed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

Raise the flop if you want, do it to show agression, don't always do it to get information.

[Danenania]

Yeah I'm not advocating the raise solely for information. A raise is good because he both has odds to call and based on his reads he may very well have the best hand. There's also a small chance of scaring UTG off possibly better hands (99-KK). Those are the primary reasons for raising, but it also has the potential to give some info based on how UTG reacts when he finds out it's not just him vs. the maniac and will affect Hero's decision on the turn.

However: if UTG calls then raises the turn and I haven't improved, I figure UTG has me beat and I either fold or call depending on pot size. If UTG reraises my flop raise, I'd probably head for the hills either then or on the turn because a limp-reraise on the flop usually means a monster.

[Schneids]

3-bet the turn. If you feel like you can't three-bet on the turn when you catch an ideal card then that's more evidence your flop play should have been fold. The whole point of making a call when you don't have the odds to do so is in hopes of cashing in on later streets.

So... cash in! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Bill Smith]

Schneids pretty much nailed it.

I had been hit by all sorts of slowplayed goodness all night and especially from this table, and I was expecting to see a set or at least a higher 2-pair.

Hero folds, BB and UTG showdown and they split the pot, both showing AKo.

Commence the flogging.