One last hand J10o UTG with 3 posters

[Kevin]

I think I might get crucified for playing J10o UTG (I play J10o 28.27% of the time in any position). There were 3 posters including 1 with $1 of dead money. nearly 5 small bets in the flop before the first card is dealt - is this still an automuck in this situation?

questions:
1.) I don't know what to do with a straight draw when a flush is potentially there - is this a check fold on the flop?
2.) The check raise from the big blind made me think that he was protecting a top pair or 2 pair hand from the draws. Normally, the guys come alive on 4th if they are made. The turn makes the straight with a J flush redraw. When I raise and he just calls, is it okay to assume that I am ahead?
3.) Bet the river?

Thanks,
Kevin

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $4. MP3 posts a blind of $3. CO posts a blind of $3.
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (9.83 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (13.83 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.83 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.83 BB, between BB and Hero.</font>

[tech]

Hey Kevin, fold this preflop. I usually only play JTo from LP.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to do with a straight draw when a flush is potentially there - is this a check fold on the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

No way I'm folding this flop in a pot this big. You have more than enough odds to stay. I wouldn't be too upset even if a diamond hits.

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise and he just calls, is it okay to assume that I am ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think so. A flush would almost certainly reraise, unless a weak-tight player fears a bigger flush.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.

[MoreWineII]

I hate J-10 os from any position, although I'll play it from LP with limpers.

In early position, it's an auto-muck unless I'm in the most passive of passive games.

Having said that though, the rest looks perfect.

[sthief09]

if the game you're in is on the passive side, the call is probably fine. but one thing you DEFINITELY don't want is to get raised behind you.

[Kevin]

Just to note, I don't play J10o utg. The posters and dead money made it pretty safe to assume that it was going to be a big multi-way pot - so that is the only reason that I limped with it. I was just wondering if there were any exceptions to the rule - especially with 5sbs before the cards came that made playing it okay - from the responses that I am gathering - I am taking it as a no.

Thanks again for the help.
Kevin

[MoreWineII]

I hear ya. With that dead money, it might push J-10 from EP onto the side of playable.

Maybe somebody with more experience than me would be able to better answer that question.

[Kevin]

BB shows 3d 4d (flush, ace high).
Hero shows Td Jc (straight, queen high).
Outcome: BB wins 15.83 BB.

(sigh)

[lil']

Aside from the pre-flop call, I think you played the hand well.

Even though there was a lot of dead money, I'm not crazy about the limp. So many times when there is dead money in the pot someone will raise to take a shot at it. Also, a lot of people who post raise no matter what they are dealt.

[guicmc]

i agree with your preflop limp, although you also must bank on probably playing in a raised pot. but J10o is playable in a 5+ player hand, which is what you are pretty much gauranteed.
my problem is with the flop semi-bluff. with that many players and that much money in the pot, someone is going to bet the flop. Any king, Jack of diamonds, any pair from the later positions. Plus, if no one bets, its okay, you are drawing anyway.
If you are betting to identify made flushes, you should fold to a raise, which is hard to do with so many outs.
But when you hit your straight on the turn you raised the check-raiser, once again not heeding any information you stood to gain when check-raised on the river. So why semi-bluff in the first place?
Your bet on the flop and your extra bet on the turn seem unlikely to knock out K or J of diamonds(who have straight flush draws) with such a big pot, so I don't really like the turn raise either. The only hands that would check raise the flop then bet the turn(without a diamond hitting), and you would could beat are the aggressive straight flush draws, which still have eight outs against you.
what do people think. two plus two tends to advise more semi-bluffing and raising than I think is often wise in loose low-stakes limit games.

[Joe Tall]

Hi Kevin,

When you get a chance read the chapter on reverse implied odd in TOP.

be a big multi-way pot - so that is the only reason that I limped with it.

This should be the reason you are folding it. JTo is going to play much better versus fewer opponents in later position, like the button.


Peace,
Joe Tall

[MAxx]

J10o is hand that I have grown to hate. Generally speaking, you are playing it too often. I will limp from late positon with this hand only (and bb, sb sometimes). However, with all that dead money and a guaranteed multiway pot- JTo is certainly playable here if you think you have a decent chance that you can get in without a raise behind you, but also prepared to have to call a raise. I think betting out on the flop was a mistake, but I would not fold this hand for one bet. I think you played hand properly on turn/river.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Kevin,

When you get a chance read the chapter on reverse implied odd in TOP.

be a big multi-way pot - so that is the only reason that I limped with it.

This should be the reason you are folding it. JTo is going to play much better versus fewer opponents in later position, like the button.


Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe, I need to reread that chapter because I am currently convinced I would rather play JT against a lot of opponents (in an unraised pot)and not a few. I would definitely like position, but I may make an exception when there is a lot of dead money.

[Joe Tall]

but I may make an exception when there is a lot of dead money.

If you are going to do that, you should raise but out of position here w/JTo, blows. If you were in LP and the dead money checked their option, I'd surely raise.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MAxx]

I am not the same page, so i think i should reread that chapter. My thinking is that I would play j10 as a drawing hand and not much more. i would be playing it primarily for its straight potential. If just a j or just a 10 showed up I may have to give it up.

[Kevin]

[ QUOTE ]
J10o is hand that I have grown to hate. Generally speaking, you are playing it too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am seeing it 21.97% vpip outside of the blinds (and after reading Joe Tall's post - playing it for a raise out of the blinds might be a leak because it is more than likely a multi-way situation that I am playing it for a bet). I am nearly break even (This hand actually swung me in the negative) -.01bb/hand in 800+ hands. Outside of the blinds, it wins me about .02 which is just below my average hand. I don't like it, don't like that I played it UTG and was really wondering about playing it with all the dead money. Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

Now, onto the semi-bluff bet on the flop. I posted a question about this about a month ago and got no responses. I I had gotten responses, maybe I could still be in the black on this hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif The fundamental question that I had was - am I drawing dead? If I assume that I am drawing dead, check and see what happens, but, it could very well be that a top pair hand (big flop with the ace queen - but lots of random hands out there) would bet, the raiser with AK, AQ, etc, raises and I am left to call 2 cold or fold a hand that could still be very live with the 3rd nut flush as a backup draw (okay, probably pushing it there - but with the ace and queen out, I liked my chances better). The blind check raising confused me because I did not put him on a flush draw and figured him to be protected a hand like top pair bad kicker to two pair. A set doesn't make sense, because anything that would make a set, he probably would have 3 bet - with 9's being the possible exception. From that point figured that I was drawing (and made) live. I got the information that I wanted, I just misread it and misinterpreted it. Let me caveat it by saying that I didn't get to the miscellaneous topics in Ed's book until after the session was over. Had I read that, I would have understood that he was protecting his baby flush against a redraw and wanted to thin the field. I just didn't think that a flush would want to thin the field so I misread it.

With that said, if I check and it is bet on the flop by someone to my left and raised back to me, do I automatically assume a flush (especially if the original raiser is the flop raiser with an ace and queen on the board?)?.

I wish every hand could be straight forward, I actually had a plus 60 bb session last night - although you wouldn't believe it if you read the three posts that I put up that add up to 50bbs worth of pots that I contributed about 1/4 to 1/3. It might have been session of the year with a couple/three better decisions along the way.

Kevin

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
J10o is hand that I have grown to hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what is fun? Throwing this hand away and watching the flop come A88.

[Kevin]

I actually like when my opponent cold calls an utg raise with it in ep or mp and hits J 10 10 on the flop and cracks aces (hopefully, it is part of the 80% of the time I am on the sidelines watching the hand). The one time that it wins means that he will cold call it every time for the next n times. It is now in his playbook from any position for any amount of preflop money.

(Like I have any right to critique and criticize...I played the rag UTG... /images/graemlins/smile.gif