Small Blind Blunder?

[MAxx]

Comments on all streets?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, Hero completes, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks.

Turn: (4 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 4d Jd (flush, jack high).
BB shows Kh Kd (four of a kind, kings).
Outcome: BB wins 10 BB. </font>

[tech]

Easy muck preflop. I only complete in 3/6 with hands I would play from the button. Played fine postflop.

[bakku]

Even with the 1/2 structure I muck this with only two limpers.

[rmr1976]

It looks like you decided to play trash suited for 3 SB, and then got sort of lucky on the flop.

I see 2 mistakes: playing this from the SB, and the river bet.

The bet on the river is questionable. Even if you make the flush, there is still some risk of losing to an even higher flush (ie Ad Kd, Kd Qd). The play from the flop suggests someone should have at least trips, with a possible backdoor draw. You aren't going to bluff someone with trip kings. If you get raised, it is likely you are beat by a higher flush. Then you are practically forced to call 2 bets with what is likely a losing hand.

I may be wrong, but I wouldn't bet here with such a weak flush.

[bakku]

The bet on the river is questionable. Even if you make the flush, there is still some risk of losing to an even higher flush (ie Ad Kd, Kd Qd). The play from the flop suggests someone should have at least trips, with a possible backdoor draw. You aren't going to bluff someone with trip kings. If you get raised, it is likely you are beat by a higher flush. Then you are practically forced to call 2 bets with what is likely a losing hand.

I may be wrong, but I wouldn't bet here with such a weak flush.

I couldn't find one correct statement in this whole paragraph..

[rmr1976]

So you think the bet on the river is correct? I'm inclined to disagree. Someone could easily be playing Kd Qd from the info given.

If you bet, and then are raised, you are forcing yourself to put in more money when it is practically certain you are beaten, unless you believe in folding a flush draw on the river. Check and call with a jack high flush, in my view, is better.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
So you think the bet on the river is correct? I'm inclined to disagree. Someone could easily be playing Kd Qd from the info given.

If you bet, and then are raised, you are forcing yourself to put in more money when it is practically certain you are beaten, unless you believe in folding a flush draw on the river. Check and call with a jack high flush, in my view, is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the summit of the weak-tight mountain. If you aren't going to bet (or c/r) your hands when you make them, just fold.

[rkaufman]

I think betting the river and calling is the correct play, as the BB could easily have AK or worse, and seeing the flush get there on an otherwise uncoordinated board, he would be inclined to check behind.

On the other hand, if you have a good read on this opponent, you might be able to fold to the river raise, but I think your read would have to be very strong.

Woody

[gamblore99]

This river is definitely not check/call. IMO the river should have been 3-bet or check raised. Because of the turn call, i would think a check raise would be more profitable, as I would expect my opponent not to raise with the flush card out there.

[nepenthe]

Although the opponent happened to have quads this time, more often than not he could slowplay AK in this way just the same. I'd be inclined to checkraise the river and call a 3-bet, but betting and calling (or, preferably, 3-betting) is OK as well.

rmr1976's comment is, thus, clearly incorrect. How he could simply assume that the opponent more likely than not has a flush in this situation is incomprehensible.

[adanthar]

This is, like, so far past wrong it veers all the way around through right and into wrong again.

Read any of the 2+2 books before playing another hand of poker. You seriously need it.

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting the river and calling is the correct play, as the BB could easily have AK or worse, and seeing the flush get there on an otherwise uncoordinated board, he would be inclined to check behind.

On the other hand, if you have a good read on this opponent, you might be able to fold to the river raise, but I think your read would have to be very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is almost as bad. You want to fold to a raise, even with a read? What on Earth are you thinking? Hint: The way that BB played this hand- *even if you are 100% certain he has a king*- indicate he has 7 ways of holding a hand you beat and 2 that beat you.

The correct action in this situation is either to 3 bet this raise or to checkraise his bet and call a 3 bet. You *might* have been able to fold to a cap on another site, but this is Party so you can't really ever do that (which is why keeping it at 2-3 bets may be better).

Recommending check-calling is quite possibly the worst advice I've ever seen on this site (but bet-folding is close behind.)

Edit: BTW, fold preflop. At the 2/3 structure, you want to complete very few hands.

[sammy_g]

I would have 3 bet the river and lost a lot of chips. Does anyone else 3 bet here?

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: BTW, fold preflop. At the 2/3 structure, you want to complete very few hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just in case anyone wonders, I'm sure this is a typo and he meant to say 1/3 structure. At the 2/3 blind structure you should be completeing a fair amount of hands.

[HajiShirazu]

I would hope everyone else would 3 bet here. The only hand that most players would raise with that you lose to is quad kings. Tough to put someone on that.

[MAxx]

Thanks for the comments. What I am takeing away from this is that the mistake came from my inital completion of the small blind with a suited garbage hand. This is something I can correct easily enough. I am pretty confident I played the rest of the hand well enough. Thanks again.

[kamelion44]

I agree that it was a mistake calling PF, although certainly not a monumental mistake. You are probably not a big dog to a handful of limpers, and may have good bluffing opportunities...and with such a small field, if you hit a good hand (flush, jack pair, two pair, three-of-a-kind), you're probably good. But, in a 1-3 blind structure, you should have folded without hesitation.

However, I think you compounded your error by calling on the turn. There's the very real possibility you're drawing dead, not only to a higher flush but also the a made full house or a drawing full house. You're getting slightly worse than 5-1 odds, and the pot is only paying you exactly 4-1 on a turn call, which is in of itself -EV. Therefore, the only way to justify a turn call is if you know you're going to get paid off when you hit your hand, to balance out your poor odds. The rub is that you have very low implied odds (in fact, depending on how you expected to play it if you hit your flush, and how your opponents play, you probably have negative implied odds). For one thing, you only have one more street to milk a worse hand. For another, if you hit, because of the horrible nature of the flop, you can't possibly be comfortable going crazy on the river, so you won't get maximum value even if you ARE good. Another good question is if you just hit a jack, will you be tempted to call a bet? With these factors stacked against already unfavorable odds, I'd say you certainly should have mucked to the turn bet.

[pudley4]

Too many people are giving flat out bad advice on this hand.

<ul type="square"> Do not complete preflop - you are putting in almost a full bet with a crappy hand out of position against few players. Do not fold the turn with your flush draw Do not worry about being behind a higher flush Do not fold on the river for one bet.[/list]

The river checkraise is probably the best play, but if you think you can bet and 3-bet, you should. The way your opponent played it (up until the river), he most likely has a big pocket pair (AA, QQ) and is scared of the Kings, or he has AK and is slowplaying. You beat all of these hands on the river.

[kamelion44]

I agree with all your statements (and in fact, supported all of them in my last post) except for the one about the turn. He clearly has a fold on the turn, for reasons explained in my last post.

[nepenthe]

Yeah, I routinely fold flush draws on the turn too whenever the board is paired and no one showed much strength up until then. Because I can't be "comfortable" about going "crazy" when I hit. Uhhuh. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh, did I remind myself that this is PARTY 3/6 and people will take shots with all kinds of trash?

If I hit a J I'm definitely calling the river Heads-Up.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
There's the very real possibility you're drawing dead, not only to a higher flush but also the a made full house or a drawing full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is just as good a chance (if not better) that your J outs are good also.

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting slightly worse than 5-1 odds, and the pot is only paying you exactly 4-1 on a turn call, which is in of itself -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You are getting 5:1 on your turn call. Folding here is actively bad.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
He clearly has a fold on the turn, for reasons explained in my last post.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly bad advice, for reasons given in the other 20+ posts.

[MAxx]

when bb bets turn that makes it so that I am getting 5 to 1 for my turn call. it looks almost like even money to me, and with implied odds its a definite call. I should have check raised river.

[kamelion44]

Well, by crazy I meant like "NUT" crazy where you cap. Certainly even you wouldn't cap here. And why are you posting on 2+2 if you don't believe in mathematics? It's mathematically unsound to call the turn. Do you disagree?

And by my comments, warning about the better hands out there, I'm not advocating being afraid of the higher nuts everytime you call or bet. What I AM saying is that the possibility of that ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT YOU'RE A MATHEMATICAL UNDERDOG TO COMPLETE YOUR DRAW, makes the turn a fold.

[kamelion44]

Clearly you all DO believe in mathematics. I was misreading the number of bets in the pot. I retract all my advice about the turn. Sorry.

[lil']

It's mathematically unsound to call the turn. Do you disagree?
Yes.

It's simple. He is a little better than 4:1 to make his flush by the river. The pot is offering 5:1. You do not fold.

[kamelion44]

Yeah sorry, I was thinking he only had 4 BBs in the pot, but of course he has 5 with the bet. Stupid mistake.

[arkady]

wow buddy, you are probably going to get an ear full from the rest of the board - but I think I got a lump in my throat just from reading that and then winced, keeled over and died.

I somehow came back to life to write this though.
I do not want to sound harsh, I can see you are new - but do not post advice here for now. Read and absorb, read the new book that just came out and post questions, but no more advice.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
It's mathematically unsound to call the turn. Do you disagree?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do. You are neglecting implied odds. You will average a minimum of 1BB on the river in this situation when you hit your hand (and this includes all of those times you hit and still lose).

[MAxx]

I concede that I made a poor preflop decision. The call on the turn was proper, you are the one with the math error bro. My river play was alright, but checkraising or 3 betting will be more profitable in the long run. I appreciate the time you took in your responses, and I do not mean to offend you. I think you will become a good poker player b/c you obviously are a thinking player and are intelligent, but before you become a very good player- you are going to have to fight the weak-tight monsters in your head. Thanks Bro.

[arkady]

Oh btw, you might want to consider when the BB bets the pot is now offering you what is in the pot + what the BB just bet.

We are talking purely flush here, no one is saying that the J is not an out - as the BB could just as well be betting with AQ or TT or whatever the hell Partyers like to bet here. Folding is baaaaad.

[arkady]

hey maxx,

You probably know this by now, but the PF call is questionable. Even the new book would probably be hard pressed to advise this hand to be played under any circumstance. If there were 5 or more limpers than you can complete, otherwise there is just no point.

[kamelion44]

Yeah I know, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the pot, you obviously played well after the flop. And I'm anything but weak/tight. No way in hell I would fold the flush draw on the turn with proper odds. And you did have proper odds. I know that, and I would have known it if I hadn't had a huge brain fart and misread the converter you guys use. Sorry again for this whole fiasco, I wouldn't have started it obviously. Go read some of my other posts, I'm not an idiot or a newbie, I just made a very bad mistake. Sorry again.

[MarkD]

Tell ya what though make the pot 3BB's instead of 4bb's and the call is still correct on the turn even though it appears to be mathematically wrong at that precise moment.

Implied odds.

[MAxx]

its cool, i missread posted situations probably more often than my fair share. If you were to go through my old posts you would find me saying everything from making simple mistakes to saying all kinds of stupid sh-t.

[kamelion44]

Yeah, I understand implied odds. I guess I'm still uncertain if you still have good enough implied odds for a mathematically unsound call here...is there a way to break this down on a hand/hand basis? Like Ad-Qd flush draws, and a full house...I guess yeah, on face it looks unlikely enough that you'll run into those hands to make your implied odds that poor...

[MarkD]

The way I see it is thus:
- Flush over flush is rare.
- Backdoor flush over backdoor flush is nearly non-existent and would never enter my mind. I would be confident in my flush if it was 3 high on the river.

So, the only hand I'm actually wary of is a full house and I think we have enough of an overlay in this situation that overall we will avergae at least 1BB+ of profit on the river with our flush the times we are ahead taking into consideration the times we are drawing dead to a tight.

I don't know how to prove this mathematically but I believe it to be true.

[rmr1976]

As usual, I'm no stranger to controversy. Clearly, people seem to think check-raising on the river is correct. I think some of you are overconfident, and assume your "fish" opponents would not slowplay a hand with the other king in it.

The guy raised pre-flop. Checked after the flop, and then BET on the turn. I'd give my opponent credit for holding at least 1 king at this point. Of course, he may have many of the other hands you have beat. But I'm giving him credit for having some intelligence. The fact he raised pre-flop and then bet after everyone showed weakness, suggests he could have AA, KQ, or AK. More likely, he probably has trips and was trying to build the pot.

Suppose you do have him beat, and check raise the river. You only will make one extra bet IF a) he bets b) you win.

If your opponent holds either a full house, or a higher flush, what are you going to do if he re-raises your raise? You have to call, but it is clearly a losing call.
The fact your opponent bets with a 3 flush showing tells me he can probably beat your flush.

I do plan on re-reading my 14 2+2 books. But I would advise the critics to take a look at Miller's Small Stakes Hold 'Em. My copy (p.135 thru 137), discusses a very similar situation, that I'm simply extrapolating to the river.

Miller gives the following:

You hold 6c 4c vs. a flop of Js Jc 10c

He calls your holding "marginal" and to "beware of paired boards with 3 high cards" and that "you will be drawing dead much more often than usual on a flop like this...The high board cards make it all the more likely the hands you fear are actually out against you."

What most of you advise here is putting more chips in the pot when it is very likely you are drawing dead. That doesn't sound too good for my bankroll.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy raised pre-flop. Checked after the flop, and then BET on the turn. I'd give my opponent credit for holding at least 1 king at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because there are no other hands he could possibly have at all. In fact the only reasonable holding is KK here.

I don't have Ed's book but the posted example is completely different. Board texture is important. Also, it is unlikely BB is raising with K9 or K6 so even if he has trip kings you are drawing to 9 LIVE outs. It doesn't matter if he has AA or AK here.

[ QUOTE ]
What most of you advise here is putting more chips in the pot when it is very likely you are drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is crazy talk.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact he raised pre-flop and then bet after everyone showed weakness, suggests he could have AA, KQ, or AK. More likely, he probably has trips and was trying to build the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. But a flush beats three-of-a-kind.



[ QUOTE ]
beware of paired boards with 3 high cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, but there are only two high cards here.

[balkii]

This is the summit of the weak-tight mountain.

OH [censored] POTD

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
- Backdoor flush over backdoor flush is nearly non-existent and would never enter my mind. I would be confident in my flush if it was 3 high on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

I lost backdoor to backdoor one hour ago at Party 2/4...but I still don't regret raising the river and calling the reraise. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
but do not post advice here for now

[/ QUOTE ]
The forum is here for all of us. Surely he just learned something that he might not have realized he needed to ask.

But rmr1976, please don't give that advice again!! Useful rule of thumb: all two-card flushes are the nuts until proven otherwise. Just bet and raise and stop worrying about it.

Once that idea is second nature to you, we can discuss the rare cases where you should know to call down or fold.

[StellarWind]

I think calling the raise is a second preflop error.

I think the river play is correct. BB's play sounds like a slowplayed king. In my experience quads is the "more equal" possibility in this situation. It's a more certain preflop raise and it is also more likely to be slowplayed. It still isn't likely but it is more likely than any other exact two cards. You are also behind A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. There are seven other AK combinations that he also might have and KQ might be possible as well. Maybe you are behind 20% of the time on the river.

The river bet absolutely screams "flush". Once he raises anyway I think you need to accept that you no longer have the 2-1 winning chance that you need to reraise into the potential nuts. Both K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif are going to cap. Actually, I would say you are already in crying call territory when he raises. I call but I don't plan on winning.

[rmr1976]

Hahah. Lots of big egos around here. I don't mind.

I appreciate the advice. And I do look forward to learning a lot from the members here. But I think this advice to check raise a third-nut flush when top pair is on the board AND you can be quite sure your opponent has trips, with a very strong possibly of even more, is silly.

I'm sort of surprised my check and call advice received more heat than those who suggested it was ok to fold a flush on the turn or river.

I would have folded on the flop if that guy, who eventually had Quad kings, bet after the flop. But he checked.

I understand the reasoning of all of you. Most of the premium hands this guy could play with you win an extra bet with if you check-raise.

The hands you lose 3 bets with are much more infrequent.
But you are assuming action is EQUALLY LIKELY on ALL of his premium hands.

I'm assuming you are MORE LIKELY to get action ONLY when beaten. I take it for granted that the opponent will play his premium offsuit hands (the ones you beat) more cautiously when the last 3 cards go to a flush.

Of all the premium hands you do beat, and check, say he checks half of them. The other half you do beat, he calls, giving you that 1 extra bet. You are only getting that extra bet on 25% of the hands you do beat. And the other hands where you are beaten, you lose 3 bets, because he check-raises you, and you have to call. I don't consider folding after a re-raise an option.

The check-raise/3 bet isn't as clear cut as you all seem to believe. Only if you believe the opponent is likely to play a AKo and Ad Kd the same, can the check raise be correct. I don't.

[tolbiny]

I think some of you are overconfident, and assume your "fish" opponents would not slowplay a hand with the other king in it.

The assumption is not that he wont slowplay, but that there are more hands that you beat than there are slowplaying hands. In fact, some of his slowplaying hands (trip kings) your flush will beat.

[tolbiny]

If the river bet screams "flush" shouldn't you go for the checkraise?

[elindauer]

You'll usually do better to bet the turn yourself than to check and call. The added equity of everyone folding more than makes up for the times you are forced to call a raise.

On the river, you should 3-bet. You can easily be up against 3 kings here.

Otherwise, you played it fine, except when you called preflop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If the river bet screams "flush" shouldn't you go for the checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite possibly. This is really opponent-dependent. I think a normal opponent almost always bets the flop except when he is slowplaying. That makes the checkraise a good idea.

The checkraise will be a big disappointment if this opponent has AQ and it checks through.

But against most people I think checkraising and not capping is good.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll usually do better to bet the turn yourself than to check and call. The added equity of everyone folding more than makes up for the times you are forced to call a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without a read I do not agree. BB's failure to bet this flop after raising preflop strongly suggests a slowplay. Getting raised can cost more than one extra bet because the raise may push out other players and reduce the pot size when you make your flush.

If BB is amazingly kind enough to fold, the other two players are unlikely to concede the pot without a fight.