SnG newb has a bunch of questions for SnG sages.

[SkippingGoat]

I've played NLHE quite extensively (and relatively profitably) and recently began trying my hand at SnG tournies on Party. I've played about 20 10+1's and have barely stayed even. I was hoping that some charitable souls could answer some questions to speed my progress.

1) How profitable can SnG's be when played well? (At what entry fee are they simply not lucrative compared to simply playing ring games.)

2) At what level does the quality of play on Party substantially increase? (20, 30, 50? Where am I going to maximize my profit?)

3) What are the bankroll requirements relative to the entry fee? What's the variance like?

4) What are the major strategy points I should consider including starting and raising hands early and late in the tourny? (I first began applying my general NLHE strategy by limping a lot of drawing hands like low pocket pairs and suited connectors but realized I was generally just pissing away a lot of chips I would need later.)

5) Any general advice on timing aggression and passiveness? Often I feel like I sit on my chips too long or try to make a play too early. Maybe this is just a result of 20/20 hindsight.

6) Any suggested reading either online or in the printed poker literature?

I immensely appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Goat

[Dominic]

First, there are plenty of threads relating to your questions already out there...just do a search for them and I'm sure you'll find some of the answers you're looking for...

But I'll help u out on one or two of them:

Your bankroll for SNGs should be roughly 25x your limit...so, $250 for the $10 games...I've found a BIG leak in SNGs is playing with too short of a bankroll or bouncing up and down between limits... so make sure you're really disciplined about this...make yourself build up your bankroll to $450-$500 before going to the $20 games, and so on.

And a book for you to look at is Tom McEvoy's Satellite book...great strategy for one table games.

[Beck]

I can't find that book. Do you happen to know the exact title?

[PITTM]

Tom McEvoy's Championship Satellite Strategy.

rj

[Beck]

Ahhh, it hasn't been published yet?

[Mr. D]

I'm fairly new to SnGs myself, but I've been doing a lot of reading here and I'll summarize for you (and possibly oversimplify):

1) A party poker SnG takes about 45-60 mins to win. Some people play up to 4 at once, I can't handle more than 2, staggered so one is early levels and one late. From what I've heard the best players can sustain an ROI of 40%, even up at the 50s and beyond.

2) The level of play pretty much goes up with the stakes in my experience, but I've read others saying 10,20,30 are similar and then it takes a jump. This probably depends on your playing style.

3) I've read you need a bankroll of 30X buy-in. Seems right to me. Steaks of not making the money can exceed 10 games even for excellent players.

4) Play really tight early (as tight as throwing away AQ-off if you're not on the button) and use your image to steal when the blinds get up to 50/100. If your stack is 10X blinds or less, go all-in to steal.

5) You'll go from rock to raving lunatic if you're playing it right. I'm stealing from Ciaffone's essay on 1 table sattelite's here, which demand a similar strategy to SnGs.

6) 3 best poker books ever (for NL tournies at least): The Theory of Poker - Sklansky, Pot-Limit & No-Limit Poker - Reuben & Ciaffone, Tournament Poker for Advanced Players - Sklansky. None of these are specifically about SnGs, but if you can digest them all and apply the knowledge to the quickly rising blinds I don't think specific advice is really necessary. That said, I've read all 3 several times and still haven't absorbed them completely (nor do I expect to anytime soon). Here is some good specific advice:

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/tournament/no_limit_sng.html

Here is an interesting chart to help with all-in decision making (which is EXTREMELY important for level 4+)

http://home.earthlink.net/~craighowald/data/matchup2.html


Now, I've done my good deed for the day, can I please win a couple SnGs?!?! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[slogger]

Post titled "SnG FAQ v.0002"


[And could one of you tech-savvy vets please tell me how to link to other posts so I can stop bumping old stuff like an idiot. Thanks!]

[Hood]

To do a link:

[URL=http://www.someurl.com]this is a url[/url*]

Like that, but without *.
Or use the 'instant ubb code' bit at the bottom.

to link to another post... the format is

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=IDofThread
Or
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Number=IDofThread

[HUSKER'66]

Beck,

You can find the book that Pitt is refering to here.Scroll down, it's like the 11th one down.

https://secure.cardplayer.com/shop/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=36bd0c1c2388c9936ec12770 74960350

It's been out for a while now.

Play well.

Husker

[Beck]

OK, thanks. Looked for it at Amazon, though. They stated it woldnt come out till Jan 2005. But maube that was just the paperback version.

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
1) How profitable can SnG's be when played well? (At what entry fee are they simply not lucrative compared to simply playing ring games.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the "100 sit and go challenge" thread -- title is close to this. I am taking the challenge now, and my play is close to that described above -- start like a rock and progress to loose-aggressive at the higher blinds. I am through 30 games now, with 50% in the money and 53% return on investment. From what others have posted here, 50% ROI seems possible over the long haul.

[ QUOTE ]
2) At what level does the quality of play on Party substantially increase? (20, 30, 50? Where am I going to maximize my profit?)

[/ QUOTE ]

For what its worth, I would recommend PokerStars single-tables. PP starts with $800. PS starts with $1500. I've found that the higher starting chips at PS has make a world of difference for me. On PP, there is very little room for error. On PP, a couple hands that don't go your way and your suddenly at $550, and there is inevitably one or two players that hit $1500 early on. There is less early variance on PP and more room to maneuver.

[ QUOTE ]
3) What are the bankroll requirements relative to the entry fee? What's the variance like?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started with a bankroll much, much smaller than that recommended above, and I've worked my way up to a comfortable level. You can start low if you play tight-aggressive.

[ QUOTE ]
4) What are the major strategy points I should consider including starting and raising hands early and late in the tourny? (I first began applying my general NLHE strategy by limping a lot of drawing hands like low pocket pairs and suited connectors but realized I was generally just pissing away a lot of chips I would need later.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Levels 1-3 (PS blinds of 10-20, 15-30, 25-50) -- Play very tight, and play position. In a disciplined session, I'm throwing away things like low pocket pairs, AJs, and AQo in early position. Sounds silly, but I've been burned too many times with what should be solid hands by players calling 3x and 4x raises with junk like J7s and hitting the flop. No all-in pre-flop unless I've got AA or KK, or unless I'm against a very-small stack with a good cushion. You'll see a lot of pre-flop all-in bets, but don't do it. There is no reason to risk your entire stack pre-flop when solid tight-aggressive play will get you to the money on a regular basis.

Levels 4-6 (50-100, 75-150, 100-200) -- Typically will have lost 2-3 players by level 4, and maybe 4-5 by level 6. Start to open up more, playing more loose pre-flop. At 100-200, a minimum bet raise starts to get some respect because the 5-6 players left are starting to think about surviving to the final three, and you've eliminated the maniacs.

Levels 7-on (150-300 up) -- Pre-flop play is the name of the game until you're down to three players. A minimum raise often takes the pot unless someone has a solid hand. A re-raise pre-flop generally should be respected, except from a big stack that has a commanding lead. If the big stack knows what he's doing, he will be raising constantly and will back down to threatening re-raises.

After you're in the money, pre-flop play generally becomes less aggressive and you should see more flops.

[ QUOTE ]
5) Any general advice on timing aggression and passiveness? Often I feel like I sit on my chips too long or try to make a play too early. Maybe this is just a result of 20/20 hindsight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play position. Like described above, start tight and loosen up as levels increase. Watch out for callers who have position on you. I've gotten into the most trouble when I'm leading the betting, and the player behind is just calling to the river, followed by all in on the river.

If you're not getting the cards, focus on surviving and floating through the middle rounds. Take down one pot per orbit by playing position, to pay for the blinds when you're not getting the cards. The other players will do the dirty work and knock each other out. With this "float through" strategy, its fairly east to make it to the last 4. On the bubble, you can get more aggressive because the table is typically at its tightest -- the worst result for each player is to go out #4. You will run up against strong hands using this strategy from time to time, but at I've found that this strategy works the majority of the time. If you make the money the majority of the time, you're way ahead of the game.

[PITTM]

the paperback one has been out forever. i saw it at bay 101 last night in the case. Check ebay.

rj

[Beck]

Could it be a new edition then??
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1580421474/qid=1091044155/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_8_4/202-0242237-8700637

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]

For what its worth, I would recommend PokerStars single-tables. PP starts with $800. PS starts with $1500. I've found that the higher starting chips at PS has make a world of difference for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll second this remark. I play at pokerroom- and you also start at 1500. You get more room to make a big bet/big raise when you have the pot. and you can play tighter for a lot longer. I have gone through the first 2 blind levels without playing a pot, and I still have over 1400 chips with blinds at only 25-50 ( so I'm 28xBB). You also get a super tight table image which helps me with a couple of steals in this round.


[ QUOTE ]
3) What are the bankroll requirements relative to the entry fee? What's the variance like?

[/ QUOTE ]


I also put in a much smaller bank roll. I figured I could always make an extra deposit if I needed more, but why tie up more than I have to. I think i made enough to get me througha bout 10 SnG's. That lasted me my first 6weeks - I made another deposit about the same, and haven't made one since.