Calling on the draw (Is it ok sometimes???)

[stupidsucker]

UNless I have a huge stack I follow the rule of never calling on the draw..

Is it ok sometimes?

Here is a hand for the Replayer (http://www.tightpoker.com/replayer/replayer.zip)


***** Hand History for Game 772740027 *****
30/60 TOURNEYTEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 4812185) - WED JUL 21 22:32:43 EDT 2004
Table Table 13798 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Vrel_sz (730)
Seat 2: pipermandy (1125)
Seat 3: syhsieh (1500)
Seat 4: barnwell (710)
Seat 5: dubbeldeuces (470)
Seat 6: The1Nub (730)
Seat 8: smizer (805)
Seat 9: MickeySoFine (425)
Seat 10: tlaw966 (1505)
barnwell posts small blind (15)
dubbeldeuces posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Vrel_sz [ 4d, 3d ]
syhsieh: thanks
The1Nub folds.
smizer folds.
MickeySoFine folds.
tlaw966 calls (30)
Vrel_sz calls (30)
pipermandy calls (30)
syhsieh calls (30)
barnwell calls (15)
dubbeldeuces checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3s, Kd, 5d ]
barnwell checks.
dubbeldeuces checks.
tlaw966 checks.
Vrel_sz bets (150)
pipermandy folds.
syhsieh raises (1470) to 1470
syhsieh is all-In.
barnwell folds.
dubbeldeuces folds.
tlaw966 calls (1470)
<< Vrel_sz: shall I make the fatal mistake so many make
<< Vrel_sz: nah
Vrel_sz folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 9c ]
Creating Main Pot with $3270 with syhsieh
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3270 |
Board: [ 3s Kd 5d 7d 9c ]
Vrel_sz balance 550, lost 180 (folded)
pipermandy balance 1095, lost 30 (folded)
syhsieh balance 0, lost 1500 [ Kc Jc ] [ a pair of kings -- Kc,Kd,Jc,9c,7d ]
barnwell balance 680, lost 30 (folded)
dubbeldeuces balance 440, lost 30 (folded)
The1Nub balance 730, didn't bet (folded)
smizer balance 805, didn't bet (folded)
MickeySoFine balance 425, didn't bet (folded)
tlaw966 balance 3275, bet 1500, collected 3270, net +1770 [ As Kh ] [ a pair of kings with ace kicker -- As,Kh,Kd,9c,7dAs(kicker card) ]


I am only questioning this because the flush did come, and although my pair wasnt good, I had extra outs with my kicker or 2 more outs to hit trips.

Just curious on if I was too deep in, or if there are cases that its ok to call on a draw.

I feel confident that folding was the best option, but I am willing to hear comments otherwise.

I feel my worst mistake was the limp, but I am normaly very productive with suited connectors early if I can limp for cheap.

Should I have just pushed on the flop?

[cferejohn]

Well, this isn't really a good example. With a pair plus a flush draw you are usually favored over top pair. In this case, you were a 53% favorite to win (and you would have been tripling up). This was a best case scenario of course because not only were all your outs good, but neither of them were holding any of your outs.

I think the fold here is OK, just because it is very possible that someone could be drawing to a better flush and/or that someone else had 2 pair or a set (I guessed one of them had a set, and egad what is wrong with these players).

If you knew only your flush outs were good, then this is certainly an auto-muck.

[stupidsucker]

Yes looking at the aftermath I can see I was actually a favorite.. BUT.. I honestly thought I was up against a set from the check/caller and perhaps a bigger flush draw from the button. If I could have seen their cards I probably would have called.. The xfactor is that this was my last tourney in a string of 15.. I was already above my goal for the night and wanted to either finish big or finish fast. I overcame that feeling and folded.

So... calling with a pair and a draw is ok sometimes then? Just maybe not in this case...

[GoSox]

There are times when I'll call on a draw, but this isn't a good example. This is a hand to fold preflop, even when you partially hit like you did anyone who limped with a pair has you beat, and you're drawing to the idiot end of the str8 and flush.

[stupidsucker]

I dont even consider the str8 draw a draw at all. I didnt have the draw until the turn where the choice would have already had to have been made.

Does anyone think my bet into the pot was bad as well? Should have minibet or checked, or pushed maybe?

I know I know the limp was in poor taste, but I am a pretty decent flop player, looking to be even better. I like my chances with suited connectors, even low ones. They are profitable for me in the right positions for sure.

[Cleveland Guy]

There are times I'll call on the draw- but this isn't one.

First off - why play 34 suited? It's so low - even if you hit you gotta be worried about over cards suited - I'd fold pre flop.

I'll play a draw if lets say I have KJ suited and flop comes J and 2 of my suit - or even 2 of my suit 8 high - cause I still have over cards