A small disagreement

I have AdKd in the cutoff. There are 3 (loose) limpers to me and I raise it. SB calls and BB calls. The flop is Q83 with two diamonds. It's checked to me and I bet. SB calls and two of the limpers call. The turn is a 6d and I have the nuts. It's checked to me and I bet. SB checkraises and everyone folds to me. I call. The river is a total blank. SB bets and calls my raise. He shows me a medium suited connector in diamonds as he mucks.


Now the gentleman to my right starts telling me that I had the nuts on the turn and that I should have raised again. I tell him that sometimes I will save a bet on the river if the board pairs and SB had trips.


Can anyone resolve this small disagreement?

Reraise, you can lose a bet ( or even 2 ) on the river if another diamond comes. Also he might go further on the turn but just call on the river.


D.

It's no-limit. One player as AA and the other has KK. They both limp preflop and it's headup. The flop betting goes check-check. The turn betting goes check-check. On the river, a king hits the board. The player with KK bets, and the AA folds.


Did the aces save money?


(Hint: no.)


Tommy

I think if you re-raise, SB may even just dump the hand then. What else could you be put on but the flush Ace or King? You certainly don't get the SB bet on the River and the call, maybe just a call. I think you played it great. (but thats only because I would have played it the same way).

i'd reraise the turn, representing a big pocket pair with a diamond. if a diamond comes on the river you're losing money.

I live by a little rule although I occaisionally break it. I raise the turn if given the opportunity mainly because the opportunity may not be there on the river. In this case your opponent either had a hand on the turn or he didn't. By that I mean he either had a made hand or a busted hand. He either bet a flush or a set or two pair or nothing at all. If you raise he folds nothing that's true but on the other three occaisions he calls and then calls the river. It is true that if he bets with nothing and you just call that he may bet again on the river but he most certainly will not call your river raise. So given this you now must decide if a raise on the turn has a higher ev than a river raise in this case. I believe it does. One other problem with waiting until the river is that if he does have a flush and the pair boards you may be reluctant to raise because of the pair thus losing a bet. Now finally, if you believe that one should not raise merely to occiasionally SAVE a bet on the river you have a serious misconception on the proper way to play poker.


Vince

Unless you opponent is capable of folding a flush here, it is best to 3 bet the turn. A board pair may scare him out of betting the end if he has a flush, ditto for a 4th diamond. If he has a set or 2 pr, a 4th of the suit will also scare him from betting, but against a set a you may save a bet. Notice that this will roughly even out when the board pairs. But the case of the flush, you almost always do better 3 betting te turn, especially if he might 4 bet.


So on balance, unless the opponent can fold the flush on 4th, or will go for multiple bets on the end if you trick him a little (not likely), then get the money in on turn.


Dan Z.

>It's no-limit. One player as AA and the other

>has KK. They both limp preflop and it's headup.

>The flop betting goes check-check. The turn

>betting goes check-check. On the river, a king

>hits the board. The player with KK bets, and the

>AA folds.


Ok.


>Did the aces save money?


I don't really know. If they each know what the other has? Then no. If the Aces knows the other guy has Kings but the Kings are in the dark? Then yes. If they're both in the dark? Then no.


If you can put the same amount of money in on a 100% shot rather than while the opponent has a chance, aren't you better off?


>(Hint: no.)

Sredni couldn't have said it better himself. Well, he could have, but only Andy Fox would get it.


So given this you now must decide if a raise on the turn has a higher ev than a river raise in this case. I believe it does.


EV? Vince? Lepore?


Sredni /images/wink.gif, who still remembers Vince's "ferret" essay.

I'd respectfully suggest that you're missing Tommy's point. He's demonstrating an extreme example of the common(but very bad) practice of "saving" money by not betting, just in case you're not good. Sure, the AA saved money on that hand because the kings happened to trip but overall that's enormous wasted EV. If you just called trying to be deceptive and because you were confident you'd get in a raise on the river that might be okay(though I still don't like it); but not 3 betting for fear of the paired board seems like a mistake.

I'd re-raise the turn, representing the nuts.


Regards, Lee

I generally bet when I'm a 4-1 favorite headsup. He can't possibly have more than 10 outs, can't be freerolling with the same hand, and is under the mistaken impression that he has the best hand.


This is a pretty damned good time to put it all in if you can. Call me crazy.