10-20: On the button with K8s

10-20 daytime at the Mirage. Straightforward player open limps in MP. Folded to me on the button with K8s. I raise. SB folds, BB, a decent playing tourist calls, MP calls. 3 to the flop for 3BBs.


Flop: 8d 7d 3h. BB bets, MP calls, I raise. BB 3-bets, MP folds, I call. 2 to the turn for 6.5BBs.


Question #1: Who 4-bets and who calls?


Turn: [8d 7d 3h] 5s. BB bets, I call.


Question #2: Who raises, who calls and who folds?


River: [8d 7d 3h 5s] 6c. BB checks, I check.


Question #3: Who bets?


Results in post beneath this one. Thanks for the feedback.

Final board: [8d 7d 3h 5s] 6c. Checked down on the river. BB turns over Ah7h and my hand Ks8s is good.

Here we go with yet another of Clark-meister's Magoo-isms...


So let's see. Before the flop. One straight-forward player open-limps. It's folded to you and you raise on the button. With King-Eight-sooted. I assume you do this to get heads up with position against a straight-forward player. I guess I'm ok with this, but I might consider limping just to let the SB in and get a bit more action on what is really a drawing hand.


So on the flop, your play is very straightforward and obvious when you raised. When the BB reraises you, he is screaming out "I've got top pair beat." I would read him for either 87s or a set at this point. Four betting is nuts, you are beat and drawing, so why charge yourself extra? It's possible he might be making a play at you with a flush draw, but you said he was decent playing, and I don't see him doing this.


The turn comes and you are bet into. When you just call, I say that you must also call him on the river, else fold right now. If you just call, you're saying "I don't believe you, I am going to call you down." I however, would strongly consider raising here. It costs the same as calling, you charge him extra if he's betting a flush draw, if you get three-bet, he's just plain got you beat, so fold, and you will often get checked to on the river (free showdown), which costs the same anyway. Raise the turn.


The river, You might bet, but what value does your bet have? A missed flush draw will fold, and everything else his play suggests he might have beats you. Once in a while you get check-raised by someone playing a small flush draw who accidentally got a straight. No value in betting the river.


You lost to two pair or trips, right?


Dave in Cali (in Vegas)

Despite the strange result, I would not have put him on that hand, and my comments are still basically the same anyway.


Obviously you should re-evaluate your opinion of this player just a bit.

>> Question #1: Who 4-bets (the Flop) and who calls?


Gotta figure he's either got top-two, a straight draw or a flush draw. Statistically, I put my money on one of the draws, but I still don't like the four-bet here, since he may have enough outs to make your raise -EV (if he doesn't already have you beat).


>> Question #2: Who raises, who calls and who folds (the Turn)?


I actually like this turn. It's unlikely he's improved his hand (you don't think he has 64, do you?!?!?), so unless he has two-pair, you're still ahead. Calling sounds correct to me.


>> Question #3: Who bets (the River)?


Typically, if I'm going to call this hand on the turn, I'm going to call on the river unless the river card makes it obvious I'm beat. In this case, if your opponent had bet out, I'd be fairly convinced that I was beat, and would fold.


But he checked. The check says that he probably doesn't have the straight, but doesn't rule out the possibility that he has two pair. Regardless, there is no hand that I can imagine he has where he'd call a bet on the river but not have you beat, so a bet seems out of the question.


[Of course, after reading your results, it turns out I'm way off base, but my comments still apply to similar hands against normal opponents.]


DC

I would have played it exactly as you did on every street. The preflop raise is pretty much automatic for me. So is the flop raise. After he three bets the flop, I'm done with aggression without improvement but I'm also river bound against most players.


This is where it's really hard to say what's best, not only because of variation in our opponent's play, but variation is how we are percieved. After the flop betting, I'm pretty much obligated to go the river because I actually have more than I've promised. For others, it's an easy laydown on the turn because they have less than they promised. Funny game, hold'em.


Tommy

Clark,


With a good player in the big blind I would probably fold before the flop. To make an isolation play with such a weak hand I would want to have tremendous control over the mid-position limper and VERY tight blinds. Two opponents are awful in this spot.


With a four-raise cap I would just call three bets (two raises) on the flop rather than making it four bets (since it can go to five bets and I don’t have that much of a hand or any draw). With a three-raise cap making it four bets would be my play in an effort to slow my opponent down on expensive street.


Since you called the flop reraise you almost have to call the turn bet when a baby comes. Your opponent is on auto-bet now.


You might want to bet the river but it is close. If he had a straight he bets and you might get a better hand to fold if he is half asleep and doesn’t think things through.


Regards,


Rick

Dave,


You wrote: "Obviously you should re-evaluate your opinion of this player just a bit."


It seems to be that big blind's play is reasonable. What did you think he did wrong or do I misunderstand your comment?


Regards,


Rick

...playing this hand before the flop was more than a little loose?

I agree. I think that the flop bet is fine, and that his 3-bet on the flop is mandatory to get the 3rd player out of the hand. If it were heads up, then maybe he can vary it, but given the way it played out, I think he played flop perfectly. The turn bet and river check by him make sense to me as well.

I see nothing wrong with playing Kxs in late position if you're not expecting a raise behind you.


However, there are legitimate arguements to be made for not raising with it as an isolation play. You could also argue that you want more limpers ahead of you in order to play it. But, it's hardly an "automatic fold".

I'd be interested to see what others think as well. Against a straightforward player who is so weak he has to open limp in MP, this is a routine and automatic button raise for me.


There are two things I love above almost all others in holdem - Position and Dead Money.


So far we have 3 in favor (myself, D. Andrew, Tommy) and 3 against (Yourself, Pokerbabe, Dave in Cali). Again, I'd like to see what others think.

Clark and Dynasty,


The big problem is that the big blind will play a lot and he plays well. Make the blinds tighter and the limper a late limper and I like the raise.


Regards,


Rick

No - I thought the same thing. If it's folded to you on the button, then raising with K8s is fine. But given that your "win the blinds right here" equity is experimentally equivalent to zero, it looks like a *very* dicey raise and a weak call at best.


Once the flop comes, fine, you're tied in. But I was mildly disturbed that Tommy said he'd make that raise every time, too. I say "mildly" because I know he's way more aggressive than I am.


Regards, Lee

Lee writes: "But I was mildly disturbed that Tommy said he'd make that raise every time, too."


One thing that makes the raise not so bad is that there is a self-filtering process. The type of opponents I would not want to play this hand against (because they play well in general or particularly well against me), are the same opponents who would not have open-limped in the first place. A +EV catch 22.


Dynasty writes: "However, there are legitimate arguements to be made for not raising with it as an isolation play."


I don't think it's smart to isolate "isolation play" as a reason for raising. There's several other standards, to maybe win the blinds, to get free cards, position on the hierarchy of fear, and more, right up to the main tangible reason which is to earn the best chance among the contenders at winning without a showdown.


But there's something bigger than all that, bringing it all together (for me) in a brainless, programmed way. Button -- one limper -- the cards/players combo warrants a flop -- raise.


Tommy

Tommy,


I agree that almost any had you play against one limper on the button (or cutoff) should be played with a raise. King eight suited just seems a little too weak unless the blinds are super tight.


Regards,


Rick

I only call. K8 suited just doesn't seem to play itself very well here. I want to see what develops on the flop. I play the rest of the hand the way Clarkmeister orginally played it after top pair flops

He didn't really play his BB WRONG, just tricky. I would be a bit more wary of him in the future, and might decide to call him down just a bit more than I would have before this hand.

From my lengthy discussions with Clarkmeister it seems he places MUCH more value on the button than I do. I know part of this is due to the fact that I play in much looser games on average, so position doesn't mean as much when there's 14 players as it does when there's 3. I don't necessarily think Clarkmeister is wrong here, just that he plays late position more aggressively than I do. I actually tend to raise more often in late position in the tighter vegas games than I do in Cali games. However, I would have just limped with K8s in Clark's position.


Dave in Cali