Different play ?20-40 hand

I'm in the cutoff with QJo, weak EP limps and all fold to me, I call. Button folds, SB calls, BB checks. Flop is 9,7,10 rainbow. SB and BB check. EP beats. I call. SB and BB fold.


Turn is a Jack (no flush draw), EP bets, I raise. EP calls.


River is an 8. EP checks, I bet and EP calls. MY Q high straight wins. EP shows his 10,8 for the turned straight - flings the cards and asks for a deck change.


A few players at the table felt it necessary to mention it was a bad beat. I don't think it was at all.


Comments?


-Zeno

It's quite obvious that it's only a bad beat if he played the hand correctly and three-bet the turn and you called. . . as it turned out, he hates money and offered you a free shot at some, which you gladly accepted.

4.5 to 1 shot a bad beat!?!?!?


You played it well...


DC

Of course it's a bad beat. That's a term we all get do define how we please. For instance, for me, there is no such thing as a bad beat that involves only cards and bets. There has to be more to the story. But when someone else tells me about a bad beat, I'll listen on their terms.


You didn't ask but I'm curious about one aspect of the flop play.


The guy bets the flop. He's got a pair-based hand, a draw, or both. Agreed so far? If yes, then it seems to me that raising on the flop should be as routine as tipping the waitress.


There's the buy-a-free-card option, there's info gathering, there's promoting my potential one pair hands by driving others out, and there's aggressive image reinforcement.


Quite a bargain for one bet, dontcha think? I don't see how the benefits of merely calling can be so great as to make raising the lesser choice.


Tommy

What he said. First thing in your post that made me sit up and take notice was the call on the flop.


I raise easily 90% of the time here.

not at all a bad beat, typical misconception that if you make your hand on the river it's a bad beat. before the table starts hands across america for this guy point out that your hand was as good or better for 3 out of 4 betting rounds.

"The guy bets the flop. He's got a pair-based hand, a draw, or both. Agreed so far? If yes, then it seems to me that raising on the flop should be as routine as tipping the waitress.


There's the buy-a-free-card option, there's info gathering, there's promoting my potential one pair hands by driving others out, and there's aggressive image reinforcement."


Very good points in support of raising but I also think that calling has its plus points:


1. You have a drawing hand and the bet is from your right. You therefore don't mind keeping the sb and bb in should you go on to hit later on. This is partciularly so if an 8 on the turn or river will give one of these guys a lower straight than the one you make. A chap in the blinds will throw away a gutshot draw to a Jack if you raise. He may call if you just call and get himself in a whole lot of doodoo if he hits on the turn. In fact, he may even chase the idiot end with a 6 particularly if he also has a pair to go with his 6. Note that the pot is small. So, the possibility of finagling extra bets downstream is a factor to consider.


2. Raising in order to make a Jack stand up should you pair may not necessarily work as if someone is holding an 8, they ain't folding the flop.


3. While less important in the grand scheme of things, this type of flop allows you some bluffing opportunities on the turn when you just call the flop but not when you raise the turn. A perfect example is what happened here. You call and the blinds fold anyway. If the turn is a 6, you may be able to raise on the turn and bluff out the EP. This is because you are more likely to have an 8 than him i.e. because of your respective positions and the fact that you did not raise on the flop which is what most people do when they have a drawing hand and the bet comes from your right. You may even have a good bluffing opportunity if an Ace or King hits and the dude bets.

Well gee - I was going to say something but skp puts most of it into a nutshell, saving me the trouble. Thanks. In fact, I was thinking of keeping the Blinds in to get a bigger pot and keep the bad draws in etc.


My first instinct was to raise, but I changed my mind based on the above and called, and then decided that a turn raise would be better to mix it up a bit. I get tired of the routine - raise for the free card bit. I don't want a free card with this hand against these players - I want to bet.


"aggressive image reinforcement" - I have not been needing this one lately. Which was one reason I just called on this particular flop.

This was a hand where I just wanted to "change up" a bit.


Thanks for the comments.


-Zeno

All good points and yes raising is the best play most of the time. I agree. This was just not one of the "90%" as Lee put it. At least, that was not my judgement for this hand against the field of players I was against. It had something to do with the flow of the game and my aggressive style that I play sometimes and then don't play at times, etc. That is all.


Thank you for the comments.


-Zeno

I'm going critique the EP play only:


1. EP limps with 10,8. He deserves to lose.

2. He flops top pair with open ended straight draw, with only 1 of his cards participating and not even to nut straight. his play here is OK.

3. On the turn he gets the hand he was looking for, but unfortunately for him nobody with a Q would fold, b/o pot odds, even if he 3 bets the turn.

3. River is an 8 and he lose. Justice is served and absolutely no bad beat.He may think twice in the future before limping with 10,8.


Happy Pokerpokering