Carlos Delgado

[Gamblor]

Delgado takes a stand by sitting down (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1090361420536&call_pag eid=969907739730&col=970081600908)

So he's against the war. He won't stand up for "God Bless America".

But how does his opinion on foreign policy make a difference to anyone?

What's the deal with booing him?

[B Dids]

Because we Americans love nothing more than jingoistic knee-jerk patriotism and don't understand why other people aren't like us.

I'm SO done with the stupid God Bless America song.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I admire his protest, but just like any protest, he should not be surprised by any negative backlash. Even though he doesn't want to bring attention to himself, this certainly will regardless.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm SO done with the stupid God Bless America song.

[/ QUOTE ] Why?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

Who was the guy who played for the Nuggets a few years back when they were somewhat decent that wouldn't stand up for the national anthem?

[B Dids]

Well, I'm not a big fan of the whole "God" thing in the first place. So I'd just as soon not thrust one idealogy down the throats of everybody at a ball game.

I also think that it's the exact knee-jerk jingo-ism that I don't like in the first post. I'm not sure 9/11 turned a tragic event into a "YAY USA!!!" festival. The whole operation reaks of nationalism with a tough of xenophobia to me.

Please note- I was raised by Hippies and some of it seems to have rubbed off, but I know that not everybody experiences the same nausea that I do at displays of patriotism.

[B Dids]

Mahmoud Abul Rouf aka Chris Jackson. He was a Muslim and felt it against his beliefs IIRC.

[Cptkernow]

You should think yourself lucky. Youre the only country in the world to have a national anthem adapted from a Royal Navy song about [censored] whores.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hey, I support the war and consider myself patriotic and *I* don't stand up for God Bless America.

If you ask me, standing for a song other than our national anthem demeans the national anthem.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure 9/11 turned a tragic event into a "YAY USA!!!" festival.The whole operation reaks of nationalism

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell is wrong with Nationalism after a major tragedy such as 9/11? Baseball is America's game, so it makes perfect sense, IMO, for songs like God Bless America to be played at baseball games. Spare me the ideology thrust bs, don't listen to the song if it offends you, even though the argument is completely ridiculous.

I am sorry if that comes off as being brunt, but I love my country man and there is nothing wrong with patriotism.

[ThaSaltCracka]

yeah but they usually play it before "take me out to the ballgame". You usually stand for that anyways so why not standup for the other song..... that being said, I do see your point though.

[Cptkernow]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I support the war and consider myself patriotic and *I* don't stand up for God Bless America.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Kurn.

Very very surprised you support the war as that stance seems to undermine everything you have ever posted.

I thought you wanted US citizens to be free to choose what they spend there money on. Dont know how many would choose to spend it on cruise missiles.

Cost of war to average citizen. (http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040701-024236-4063r.htm)

Whats your priority? Liberty or war ?

[mikeyvegas]

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't like that "God Bless America" is played for the 7th inning stretch. In my mind singing "Take me out to the Ballgame" in your best Harry Carey voice should be the only the music played while you hustle to get your last beer for the game. And anyone who claims that Baseball is America's game has lost touch with reality and the popularity of Football.

As for Carlos Delgado not standing during the song, I have no problem with that. It's his right. And I have no problem with people booing him for not standing, since it's their right.

Has anyone here heard about MLB not allowing Keith Foulke to where the flag patch on his hat to support the war effort. I think that's a much more interesting topic.

[B Dids]

I think there's something wrong with it when it occurs without thought and often manifests itself in a bigoted and unthinking fashion.

I'm not saying that's what you're doing at all- but my memory of post 9/11 patriotism is Toby Keith and the way that people treated the Dixie Chicks for speaking their mind. It's John Ashcroft and the Patriot Act.

To me, what you take from 9/11 was that it was really, really sad. There's other lessons to be learned, but none of them were "Gosh Darn I like America".

[David Steele]

I don't like hearing the pop stars singing it every day
just for patriotism but when Ronan Tynan sang it at Yankee
stadium during last years playoffs, now that was music.

D.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Whats your priority? Liberty or war ?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Without the means and willingness to defend yourself, there is no liberty. I think this administration has done a horrible job of planning for, and justifying, this war to the voters.

There is no threat to liberty in the world greater than Islamism. This is no less than a battle for civilization, for the survival of a free, open, diverse, mercantile cultue over forces that would drive us all back to the dark ages.

The battle has to be fought somewhere, sometime. A culture that applauds teenagers that strap exposives to their bodies and murders innocent people is the antithesis of liberty and must be eliminated from this planet.

[B Dids]

Ugh...

It's not "a culture" it's the lunatic fringe of a culture. There's a bunch of crazy Christians doing horrible things too...

[Cptkernow]

So in this case, you dont have the liberty to choose how that 3k gets spent, the government gets to choose for you.

Also, you dont think this was a war against Saddam, but a war against Islam itself.

Intresting.

What about those Islamic citizens of the USA?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's something wrong with it when it occurs without thought and often manifests itself in a bigoted and unthinking fashion.

[/ QUOTE ] How does this pertain to God Bless America? This song has everything to do with America and its beautiful landscape and next to nothing to do with God.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that's what you're doing at all- but my memory of post 9/11 patriotism is Toby Keith and the way that people treated the Dixie Chicks for speaking their mind. It's John Ashcroft and the Patriot Act.


[/ QUOTE ] My memory of post 9/11 patriotism is aide workers working hours upon hours at ground zero, passionate speaches by politicians, normal Americans donating billions, talking to their neighbors, spending more time with their family, baseball and football players waving flags, people crying during the natonal anthem, putting there flag out for display on a non-holiday. WHAT THE [censored] IS WRONG WITH THAT?
You have a skewed view of the months after 9/11. Yeah people criticized the dixie chicks, Toby Keith was an ass, John Aschcroft was John Ashcroft, but to say that in some way signifies the response of the majority of Americans is fallacious.

[ QUOTE ]
To me, what you take from 9/11 was that it was really, really sad. There's other lessons to be learned, but none of them were "Gosh Darn I like America".

[/ QUOTE ]
Bullshit, you need to realize the attack on 9/11 was an attack on America and Americans. You better feel proud to be an American, especially after 9/11. Terrorists hate us so much that they want to kill us. read that again if you don't understand.

[craig r]

There was an earlier article that came out about this. I am trying to find it. But, it also mentioned (half the article in fact) that Delgado (along with Pudge Rodriguez and other Puerto Rican baseball players) are trying to get the U.S. Navy to clean up the test bombs in Vieques.

[ThaSaltCracka]

their not the first people to try, but I think it is an admirable cause. The U.S. can probably go somewhere else and do this training. Montana is big, relatively flat, and empty, why don't they go there.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
their not the first people to try, but I think it is an admirable cause. The U.S. can probably go somewhere else and do this training. Montana is big, relatively flat, and empty, why don't they go there.

[/ QUOTE ]

**Insert sarcastic Ray Zee response here**

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

hey man, I lived there for a year, I know what its like, imagine Pullman, but worse!!!!

[jslag]

[ QUOTE ]
Bullshit, you need to realize the attack on 9/11 was an attack on America and Americans. You better feel proud to be an American, especially after 9/11. Terrorists hate us so much that they want to kill us. read that again if you don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your statements are just patriotic nonsense. So what you're saying is, the solution to terrorism is to be a proud American? And that all Americans "better feel proud to be an American, especially after 9/11", regardless of America's prior actions against other foreign nations? Wake up man. The terrorists didn't go pray to their god and suddenly decide to hate America.

"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
hey man, I lived there for a year, I know what its like, imagine Pullman, but worse!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I loved Pullman, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. Liked the Tri-Cities too, so I'd probably like Montana.

[Usul]

Disclaimer: This post is merely the opinion of one man, and is not intended to be offensive in any way.

It seems to me a more appropriate response to 9/11 than the "knee jerk" patriotism that has swept accross the US, would be a realization that as an American, you live in a country that has burned so many bridges with it's foriegn policy that people around the world have begun to act on thier hate. Perhaps instead of, or better yet, it addition to putting out a flag on a non-holiday, Americans should send a message to thier government to clean up thier ****ing act.

[B Dids]

I grew up in Pullman, it's a nice place as long as you're not 17.

[andyfox]

To paraphrase what that great philosopher Mickey Rivers once said about Reggie Jackson, Delgado should stop thinking and start hitting.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
So what you're saying is, the solution to terrorism is to be a proud American

[/ QUOTE ] Find where I said this and I will give you a thousand dollars. Good luck....

Every American should unite and stand up for their country when it is attacked. Attacking another country and killing innocent civlians is not something that should be condoned or forgotten about. Regardless of what our government has done to other countries, that still does not mean that innocent civilians should have to die for the governemnt to learn its lesson.

You sound like your glad we got attacked because "Now we will reap what we have sowed", right? Great, tell that to the 3500 people who died, who had nothing to do with that "sowing". Terrorists hate America and its way of life, so [censored] them I am proud to be American. If you think that we shouldn't be proud to be American, go join their side.

[ThaSaltCracka]

go check it out man. Do you own a big truck? A shotgun? Like cheap beer? May be a closet racist? if so, move to Montana.

[andyfox]

The three worst songs ever written are Take Me Out To The Ball Game, The Star Spangled Banner, and God Bless America.

Why say take me out to the ball game when you're already there? I don't care if I never get back? Really?

However, the camraderie and good feeling engendered by the swinging waltz rhythms of the song are nice.

The Star Spangled Banner is terrible. Oh-oh say can you see by the dawn's early light what so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming? Huh? America the Beautiful is a beautiful song that, instead of being enthralled by rockets and bombs talks about brotherhood.

God Bless America is just a bad thought. That's the way the terrorists think, that God is on their side. A cheap song by a hack songwriter. Yeah, I know Irving Berlin is considered great. But he also gave us there's no business like show business like no business I know. Compared with the other great American songwriters of the era (Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Richard Rogers, George and Ira Gershwin to name just a few) he was an amateur.

Having said this, I love hearing Ronan Tynan (or whatever his name is) sing.

[Cptkernow]

Rule Britania

Now theres a song.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

We'll take care of the fundies here at home next, but last I checked, there haven't been any Christians blowing themselves up to kill other people.

And perhaps "culture" was an inappropriate term, as it might be construed to mean Islam itself. The fact is, much of the middle east has been co-opted by an extremist interpretation of certain parts of the Quran. It's that influence on the culture about which I'm speaking.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Also, you dont think this was a war against Saddam, but a war against Islam itself.

That is not what I said. Islam is absolutely *not* the enemy.

What about those Islamic citizens of the USA?

What about them. lat I checked we in the US had something called freedom of religion, a concept I would defend with my life.

[nicky g]

"That is not what I said. Islam is absolutely *not* the enemy."

Are you sure Islamism is either? Turkey is governed by a moderate Islamist party. Some Islamists are amongst the most dedicated advocates of democracy in the Middle East. Don't you man violent/extremist Islamism? Or are you against all forms?
(Obligatory addendum: Saddam Hussain was not an Islamist. Aplogies).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Why say take me out to the ball game when you're already there?

You'll be hearing from Jerry Seinfeld's lawyers in the morning. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

The Star Spangled Banner is terrible. Oh-oh say can you see by the dawn's early light what so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming? Huh? America the Beautiful is a beautiful song that, instead of being enthralled by rockets and bombs talks about brotherhood.


I agree. It's also the worlds most impossible song to sing, going either above or below the vocal range of 90% of those trying to sing it.

God Bless America is just a bad thought. That's the way the terrorists think, that God is on their side.

OK, shut up right now. I'm agreeing with you too much. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Cptkernow]

What about those Islamic citizens of the USA?

Should they.

1. Pay no tax towards the war
2. be forced to pay tax towards war
3. Rounded up and put in camps

I cant quite work out your position.

[nicky g]

"3. Rounded up and put in camps"

I think you can be fairly sure it's not this given his comment about freedom of religion.

[Cptkernow]

Yea but he also said:

"There is no threat to liberty in the world greater than Islamism. This is no less than a battle for civilization, for the survival of a free, open, diverse, mercantile cultue over forces that would drive us all back to the dark ages."

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

As has often been pointed out to me on this board, the US is a constitutional republic that has taxes. Thus all citizens are required by law to pay taxes regardless of their opinion about how those taxes are used.

Should taxes as a whole be lower. I believe so. If taxes are lower, and the government needs more money for national defense (or anything else the constitution allows) then there should be the option for congress to initiate bills for additional taxes. Now, like most libertarians, I believe that congress should need a super-majority to either raise taxes or initiate new taxes.

Also, as a libertarian, I believe that national defense is a rational function of government. I also understand that there may be disagreements as to whether or not a specific action qualifies as national defense. That's why we have a democratic process, and also why I believe government shouldn't be able to raise taxes easily to support military endeavors.

3. Rounded up and put in camps

It's insulting that you even suggest in jest that I would support this.

[nicky g]

But Islamism isn't the same as Islam. Very loosely defined, Islamism is political Islam - wanting government to govern according to Islamic law (whatever that is). A lot of people tend to use it as a byword for violent Islamic extremism, which is wrong IMO. From what he's wortten Kurn is against Islamism, though how he defines this I don;t know, but not against people practicising the Islamic faith.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't see what why you think this mean american citizens should be persecuted for their religious belief. There is a huge difference between Islamism, which is a political movement, and Islam, which is a religion.

[Gamblor]

Youre the only country in the world to have a national anthem adapted from a Royal Navy song about [censored] whores.

That is a myth.

It is based on a poem written by Judge Adolphe-Basile Routhier.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Saddam Hussain was not an Islamist.

You are correct, of course. There is also a complexity inherent to this entire conflict that mitigates against simple answers. I support the war on terror and I supported the war against Iraq. In many ways they are two different wars, but they have enough common bonds to make them inseparable in a geopolitical sense.

It may be ironic that the Presidential candidate for whom I will vote is likely the only one who would immediately cease our involvement. You may rest assured that if elected, John Kerry will not withdraw us from this conflict.

BTW - when are you coming over this way? I'm still looking forward to continuing our discussions at one of the watering holes at Mohegan.

[Gamblor]

So you're okay with Islamists, as long as they practice (in their opinions) a watered-down version of Islam?

Islam requires proselytization as a fundamental tenet of the faith. A Muslim should make every effort to Islamicize his world. Look at a history of the Arab people. Islam was the reason they went and conquered every civilization from Morocco to Iran (and in modern times, Sudan and Israel).

In other words, you're saying it's okay to call yourself a Muslim, but it's not right to actually be a Muslim.

[nicky g]

Ah, you missed an earlier post I made about that - I've been and gone. Didn't get in touch as in the end I wasn't anywhere near your neck of the woods - just NYC and New Hampshire. Originally there was a plan to go down to FW or MC with some of our friends who live in the area, and there was much lobbying to stop off in Connecticut throughout the trip, but it fell on deaf ears - my wife doesn;t get to see her family often so we just hung about with them. Was not a great trip all in all - endless flight screw-ups, bad weather and I lost my wedding ring in a lake. Was promised a trip to a dog track and even that didn't happen. But my wife had a good time with her folks which was what really mattered. Rest assured I'll be round there sometime in the near/mid future.

[nicky g]

Your opinions of what Islam requires differ from mine.

[Gamblor]

I believe it was, after Jackson heckled Rivers (in the press) for being illiterate, Rivers responded in the next interview: "you better stop readin and writing and start hittin!"

I heard a story about Reggie Jackson bragging about an IQ of 150 or something to which Rivers responded: "out of what, a thousand?"

Either way, easily the dumbest man in sports.

(And I played hockey)

[Gamblor]

Excuse me.

I refer to Arab Islam, not Islam.

Turkey, for example, is Islamist but has found the proper mix between Islam and freedom.

[nicky g]

You've lost me. (Apologies for tone prior to edit).

[Cptkernow]

[ QUOTE ]
Youre the only country in the world to have a national anthem adapted from a Royal Navy song about [censored] whores.

That is a myth.

It is based on a poem written by Judge Adolphe-Basile Routhier.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.

It was writen by an american (they obviously had to change the words) but it was based on the meter of an english navy song.

Origins of some old Yank song. (http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anthem.html)

I was exagerating about the [censored] whores bit though.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Islam requires proselytization as a fundamental tenet of the faith.

In this respect they're no different than Christians.

[Joe Tall]

I could care less about his protest. He has the right.

But man, he's a black hole on my Fantasy Team, when the hell is he going to snap out of it!?!?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

he's a black hole on my Fantasy Team

Mine too! Man I thought I had it made with him in his walk year.

[Gamblor]

Gamblor (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=1797&Board=exchange&what =ubbthreads&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14)

Please note location.

[Gamblor]

I always wondered why someone would want to force you to believe something. What difference does it make to you if I'm a heathen or not?

In Jewish tradition, you don't even need to be Jewish to go to heaven. You're not Jewish? No big deal. But at least try my mom's chicken soup.

[andyfox]

Rivers did at least have a sense of humor. Towards the end of his last year pitching, Catfish Hunter was struggling, giving up tons of home runs. When he went out to the mound for one of his last starts, Rivers reported to center field with a catcher's mitt on his butt.

[Gamblor]

He hasn't been healthy all year and is playing while badly hurt.

[andyfox]

"You'll be hearing from Jerry Seinfeld's lawyers in the morning."

I only steal from the best. I'll be heisting Sklansky's stuff soon.

I would like to steal this one too: Jay Leno said Kerry is flip-flopping and taking both sides of so many issues, if elected he'll be the only president to give the State of the Union speech and the rebuttal.