$30-$60 Hand

I am in the big blind with the Kh-Kd. An early player limps and a middle player raises. The cutoff calls. The button 3-bets. The small blind calls. I just call rather than 4-bet. Everyone else calls. There is $540 in the pot and six players. The flop is: 8d-8c-3s, giving me two pair. The small blind checks. I check. The early player checks. The preflop raiser bets. The cutoff folds. The button calls. The small blind calls. I now raise. The early player folds. The preflop raiser calls. The other players fold. There is $720 in the pot and two players. The turn is the 9c. I bet and my opponent calls. The river is the Jh. I bet and my opponent folds.

I have two questions:


1. Should I have four-bet preflop?


2. Should I have bet the flop instead of check-raising?


All comments welcome.

the deception value is worth way more than the raising value when there's still an overcard that can flop. i'd cap aces and mutter something happily about building a pot, and i'd just call with kings.


i wouldn't have bet out on the flop, and i probably wouldn't have checkraised until the turn to represent an 8

Jim,


Far be it from me to offer advice or comment on your play, however I think you played the hand well.


I would have called the raises and then check raised the flop. I want to win the pot right there. I also would bet out the turn and the river.


Nice hand.


MK

I like your smooth call preflop because on later streets you can choose to check-raise on flop or on the turn forcing others facing two bets. As for question two, I think check raising the flop here is good, because you want to find out if someone has the 8 on the cheaper street and not on the turn.

Make it four bets preflop - you want to try to push out a few players, especially the EP limper.


I like your check-raise - Also, your betting out on the turn and river.


-Zeno

Hey Jim,


My thoughts, for whatever they're worth; I haven't yet read the other replies.


I like just calling preflop. First, you save a small bet if an A flops--maybe not such a major consideration. Second, you don't interfere w/ the original raiser--if he reraises(what's a cap--I suppose you're in Vegas where it's five bets--so interference doesn't apply) then you can suspect AA and play more carefully. Third, and probably of most value, you keep the strength of your hand disguised which gives you the benefit of getting more action from a slightly weaker hand while giving you the benefit of being able to represent a much stronger hand(depending on the flop, this one for instance) and you get to decide how you want to manipulate the pot; which brings up your second question....


With so many players in(was the game like this all day/night? nice action), and such a large pot, I like your decision to check-raise. You might expect the action to check around to the three-bettor, whom you can check-raise hopefully shutting out the field(even though it did not go down this way), even if the sb calls the first bet, you can make three other players face two bets cold with the fear that they are drawing dead to your hand(which may look like trips). If you lead out, many players won't give you credit for trips(which you don't have anyway) and may call one bet hoping that it doesn't get raised and that they spike an Ace or pick up some draw.


I probably would have played it exactly the same way, which is to say that I think that you played it perfectly /images/wink.gif . Of course, my most recently posted hand doesn't necessarily make the best example to follow.


Take it easy,


Mike

Jim,


I like the pre- flop cold-call in most situations, more so than always four-betting it; why give away your hand when you're clearly not going to pick up the pot there and then? On the other side of the coin, if you're so fortunate as to be dealt in the same hand in the same game, why not put in the fourth bet the second time round, for the sake of confusion?


Likewise, on the flop I'd sometimes check-raise, others, bet out- just enough so no-one could really be sure where I stood.


perfidious

I think that if you are going to slowplay your kings preflop, you should often pull the trigger on the turn when you hit such a favorable flop.


Do you 4-bet with AK/AQs/78s here normally? If so then you should have no trouble getting full value if you 4-bet here and follow through on the flop/turn/river.


Do you only 4-bet with AA/KK/QQ here? Then you might have a hard time getting paid off and slowplaying has more value.


If people are folding for one more bet to your flop check-raises, this tells me that they are probably trying to exploit your play in some manner.


- Andrew

Jim,


You asked: ”1. Should I have four-bet preflop?


I’m guessing you just called hoping the original raiser would make it four bets and the reraiser five bets (assuming there is a four raise limit as in Las Vegas). If you played this hand in Las Vegas I believe you should have made it four bets since there is a tendency in that venue for the betting to stop at three bets (since the original raiser knows he faces only one more raise if he decides to reraise). In Los Angeles (three raise limit) I like the smooth call since it is much more likely someone else will cap it since it only costs them one more bet if they are going to play anyway.


[b]”2. Should I have bet the flop instead of check-raising?{/b]


I like the checkraise. If the first raiser bets (as happened this time) you trap a big field. If the pre flop reraiser bets your checkraise puts anyone holding an ace or middle pair to the test (do they want to call two raises cold with more raises to come?). It is unlikely an eight is out with that preflop betting. The checkraise also shows more strength so if reraised by the pre flop three better it might mean you are up against AA.


Note that you really don’t want to narrow the field since there are no possible draws or five outers to trips or two pair (as there would be if the board did not have a pair) and someone holding anything but an eight or AA is way behind. The checkraise gets the most money in right away and might get them pot stuck.


Regards,


Rick

'Note that you really don’t want to narrow the field since there are no possible draws or five outers to trips or two pair (as there would be if the board did not have a pair) and someone holding anything but an eight or AA is way behind. '


on the other hand the pot is big and youd really hate for somebody with AQ to peel one off real cheap and spike an Ace. (early postion would be getting 22-1 and would close betting)


brad

There's one thing that nobody mentioned...


Let's stipulate that you're a moderately aware player. A raising war breaks out and Brier, *BRIER*, cold calls two bets out of position. Tell me blinking red lights and klaxons aren't going off inside your head. Therefore, I claim that the deception value is low, and Jim should get his EV while he can (preflop). Realistically Jim, what range of hands do you call two cold on the BB? Maybe down to JJ? AQs? See my point?

Quoting Tommy: "When you're not sure which way the green breaks, aim for the hole."


Regarading the check-raise on the flop: Rick is correct - you're only afraid of AA or an 8. It seems that your job is to find those hands. Other than that, you've got smooth sailing. I would decide where I thought those hands might be and then put myself between the likely aggressors and them (so I can get in a raise or a three-bet and figure out who's got what). Under the circumstances, I like the check-raise. And after that, you just keep firing. And, BTW, you do not lay these kings down unless somebody *shows* you rockets or an 8.


It's interesting to note that one respondent said, "Check-raise to cut off a bunch of people" and another said, "Check raise to trap a bunch of people in." I think check-raising to cut off is actually correct if only because it might knock out some pairs that are getting the right price (!) to take off a turn card and hit a miracle set.


Regards, Lee


P.S. (Flogging of dead horse warning) I know you say that poker players think dollars rather than bets. Could we at least stipulate that the 2+2 crowd thinks about the game analytically enough that we're interested in bets, not dollars. I argue that 93% of us reading here (and that's a scientific estimate) know that it doesn't matter whether we're playing $.25-$.50 with Auntie Doona or $1000-$2000 with Annie Duke - it's all SB's and BB's.

"There's one thing that nobody mentioned..."


Cosmic! One beakon of reckoning outshone all others while reading Jim's telling of the hand: that Jim had called two-cold from the BB preflop. And Jim, I'm not saying this to poke fun at your tightness. Having seen it, I'm in genuine awe of it, not ridicule, just so's you know.


This is a very interesting situation to me because it's one I gave tremendous attention to before arriving at a zero-variance policy several years back. I always raise and reraise with KK before the flop, even from the blinds. If this happens to be correct for me, that's because I happen to raise lesser hands at such a frequency that makes always raising with KK the best choice. (If there is luck in poker, it's when pairs of frequencies like these occur more by accident than design, and then they happen to generate profit.)


Jim,


I think *you* should so so definitely must make it four bets before the flop and under no conditions stop being to the final aggressor through the flop if no ace comes. Besides getting so much more money in with the bestof it, you save on the back end too, because if you get tangled with on the turn, you'll get that "I'm sure I'm beat" feeling like only seven-bets-or-so can buy.


Tommy

This assumes the "moderately aware" player knows Jim Brier. I suppose even if he doesn't, he has probably seen Jim play tight to this point and would be wary when this player plays for 3 bets out of the big blind. But I've seen unknown players fold hand after hand, blind after blind for what seems like an eternity and then, in a wildish pot, show down 8-6s from the big blind.


So I think there' probably a bit more deception value for Jim here than you do. But I would argue the hell with it, take the money and run with it. There's some value to not being deceptive too. I'm more likely to take one off to my pocket pair if I'm not sure about my opponent having a biggger pocket pair than I am if I'm sure he has it. And since I'm getting the right price to do it, Jim would rather I didn't. So I see some value in "telling" me what his hand is.

An extremely successful mid-limit player that Jim and I both know has the following algorithm for deciding whether to raise with KK:


He asks the dealer if the betting is capped [1].


Regards, Lee


[1] I'm taking poetic license here, but the intent is the same. KK is a huge hand and is preciously rare. Pound on the pot with it. Waiting to see if an ace flops is rather like choosing not to get all-in with AA vs. TT preflop in case a Ten flops. KK is better than 2:1 ahead of AQs where the AQ has one of your flush outs trapped. You're getting more than 2/3 of every dollar of his that goes in the pot preflop.


I'm not arguing that there is no value in deception. But certainly in this case, where the deception value is minimized [2], the gap between collecting it now vs. collecting later via deception is huge.


[2] This is a Vegas 30-60. Seven of Jim's nine opponents have his home phone number.

For a conservative I think you did fine.


Vince

brad,


The ace is the killer card no doubt. But it is somewhat likely to be duplicated in other hands.


My main point is that a checkraise does a lot for Jim whether it traps people on the installment plan or forces them to put in two bets cold. A dry ace or a baby pair is probably going to fold rather then call two bets cold or overpay if they get trapped. Either way Jim and/or the player with the eight or AA gains.


Regards,


Rick

"KK is a huge hand and is preciously rare. Pound on the pot with it"


I agree. Let 'em know I have it. I'll take the dollars over the deception value. There will still be some non-believers if you make it four bets anway, so why not do it. Plus I agree with Tommy that your read of the "I know I'm beat" feeling is much more accurate if you pounded up until the turn, so it's easier to save money on the back end.

Lee,


You wrote: "It's interesting to note that one respondent said, "Check-raise to cut off a bunch of people" and another said, "Check raise to trap a bunch of people in." I think check-raising to cut off is actually correct if only because it might knock out some pairs that are getting the right price (!) to take off a turn card and hit a miracle set."


I think trapping and checkraising to drive players out both work. In the first case they pay too much on installments. If the AA or eight isn't out Jim should want another middle pair such as 99 or an AQ to pay multiple bets (let's say the button has QQ) rather than fold.


If they fold the rest of the hand is simplified, meaning Jim is less likely to get knocked out with a tricky turn raise.


Regards,


Rick

Let me respond to question 2. The pot is big, and you want some people to fold. The way to do it is to make them call two bets cold on the turn. That way you wont get outdrawn on the river. So just check-call the flop and then bet or check-raise the turn (unless an ace comes) depending on who shows aggression on the flop. If it is the first raiser who is aggressive on the flop, you bet the turn. If it is the button you check-raise the turn.

The way you played you most likely just build a bigger pot on the flop. I think you were very lucky to get it heads-up.


Anders

1. Should I have four-bet preflop?


No, as you're out of position, not a favorite, not going to lose anyone by capping, want to conceal your hand, and it might well get capped by the MP anyway.


2. Should I have bet the flop instead of check-raising?


No, as you definitely want to take control of the pot at this point, and you have little reason to think that it'll get checked around. This will likely lose the EP (although he's not likely to have an 8, you still want him gone at this point), get more money in the pot, and set the stage for you to pick up the pot when a brick hits the turn.

Hi Lee!


I think your remarks are right on the money as usual. I think I should have simply four bet preflop. I believe I cost myself money by "disguising the strength of my hand" and so forth. I will be asking our mutual friend about this one along with around 20 other hands I go over with him each week.


In the future, when posting on this forum, I will use bets instead of dollars.


Thanks!

"and i probably wouldn't have checkraised until the turn to represent an 8"


why would you want to represent an 8 on the turn? if you represent an 8 the only hand that will call you is the one with an 8 and then he most likely will play back at you and you can call with your two outs or fold having put in 2.5 bb after the flop. if you check raise the flop you may get callers who are trapped, or with over cards (AK, KQ ect) all of wich are drawing thin against you. secondly a check raise on the flop should drive out hands that have a chance to beat you, people with a backdoor str8 or flush who are calling because of the size of the pot.

after you C/R the flop i would bet out on the turn, ready to fold to a raise as that would almost definaltly be an 8 costing you 2 bb for that info.

just thoughts from a begginner

The two plays are connected and I think you did it correctly. By calling before the flop you set up the check raise. The position of the original raiser was not so good for driving players out, but it was good for building a big pot. There were very few hooks for anyone to hang their hand on with that flop so building the pot is a good play if they want to chase. You also gave the orignal raiser a chance to narrow the field for you by giving him the chance to reraise.

"In the future, when posting on this forum, I will use bets instead of dollars."


How 'bout in the second edition of your book? /images/smile.gif

"No, as you're out of position, not a favorite, not going to lose anyone by capping, want to conceal your hand, and it might well get capped by the MP anyway."


Not a favorite? He has Kings fer cryin' out loud! He's certainly out of position. He ain't gonna lose anyone. There might be value in deception. It may well get capped without his help. But to say he's not a favorite is just plain wrong. And as has been pointed out, the fact that Jim friggin' Brier is calling two raises out of the blind should sound some warning sirens anyway. I lean towards raising. Heavily.

When I say "not a favorite," I mean that--


Y'know what? I can't justify that statement.


I think, however, that it is a bit less ludicrous a statement than you portray it.


Being a small favorite preflop doesn't always make raising requisite, as you know.

If you four-bet preflop, what happens with this specific flop? You bet and everyone folds?


What happens with a Jh 9x 4h flop? You bet and everyone calls or the late drawing hand correctly raises or the set raises or you check and everyone checks?


What happens with A x x flop?


What flops would be more profitable for you to have preflop four-bet?

If I four-bet it is very unlikely that everyone will fold when I bet the flop regardless of what the flop brings. With this large a pot, players are getting the right pot odds to play any pair or even a runner-runner for one small bet.


But the idea is that by camouflaging the strength of my hand and allowing the button 3-bettor to lead at the flop, I can check-raise the flop and force everyone to face a double bet. This will drive out some of the miracle draws and increase my chances of winning the pot by reducing suckouts. Of course, I am giving up some preflop equity by doing this. But supposedly when the pot is large this is what you do. You do everything possible to increase your chances of winning the pot and forsake the opportunity to make extra bets sometimes.


Obviously, with an ace-high flop I save money by having not four-bet preflop.


An interesting question would be that if you camouflage the strength of your hand preflop because the pot is large, when is it right to check-raise the flop as opposed to waiting until the turn to check-raise?