Playing TJs

As I've matured in my poker playing one of the things I realized was that I had been overvaluing TJ suited. Tended to play it in almost any situation. It just looks so darn pretty. Thus I've been working on when and how to play it. Anyway, this occurred last night in a nine-handed 30-60 game.


The game has seven fairly tight players of various degrees of sophistication and two players supplying the action for the rest of the table. One of these was a guy who had no clue and called to the river with third or fourth pair routinely. The other was more of the maniac type and somewhat more dangerous but a person who clearly overplayed everything and enjoyed raising with complete crap.


I'm 6th in position (ie. 3 people behind me and then the blinds). The two action players are the blinds. Folded to me and I have JT hearts. I had already thought that with these two guys in the blind it would affect how and what I play. Virtually no chance of stealing the blinds and very likely that both call a single raise with almost anything. So, I raise. Much to my chagrin the most solid player at the table sitting to my immediate left cold-calls. This probably means at least AK and the fact that he didn't three bet makes me think AK is very likely. 8 and 9 fold and of course both blinds call.


Flop comes Qh9s4s. Checked to me and I bet, solid player calls (would he call with AK? Could he have QQ given that he flat calls and doesn't raise? He surely would have 3-bet QQ before the flop, I think.) Blinds, (of course) both call. Turn is a beautiful 8d. Check to me, I bet, solid player folds, (thank God, blinds are now probably drawing dead), both blinds call. River is Qc. Check to me, I bet, SB calls (this is clueless player) and BB (maniac) raises!! I think for a moment and am as certain as one can be in a poker game that this guy would have bet or raised earlier with a set or two pair - ie. no way he filled up. So I reraise. SB folds (well I guess he's capable of throwing away a hand in some situations) and maniac calls. I show my staight and maniac mucks.


I know results don't matter in terms of whether or not a play was correct but I put them here because they confirm the accuracy of my read of the situation. I figured to be payed well if I made a hand.


A solid player and I had been talking earlier and he asked me about playing in a tournament and I said I generally didn't play tournaments and thought my style of play was two tight to be a good tournament player. Well now he took me to task - "You raise UTG with TJ and you think you're too tight?" (I wasn't UTG).


I think in this situation you either raise or muck - I can't see limping being the first one in in mid position. I think my read on the situation clearly makes a raise the right move. Am I fooling myself? Does anyone think that limping is a good play? If the lineup was different (and my image was different) I might well have mucked. I don't think I'd ever limp however.


An additional question is my raise on the river. I think this is a solid play. I could fear the board pairing but there was just no way that this could have filled up the raiser given his style and the play of the hand.


Comments welcomed.


Claude

You played it fine the whole way. Raising should be automatic, and if they call with worse hands and worse positon, who cares?


As for the "solid" button, if he has AK and cold calls, he is not solid, he stinks. He should always 3 bet or fold in this spot.


Dan Z.

I agree with you regarding the solid player but remember I don't know what he had and in fact remain somewhat puzzled what he would play the way he did - ie. coldcall 2 BTF, take one off on the flop, and then fold to a single bet on the turn. AK is about the only thing that makes sense to me because surely he would have 3bet with JJ or TT (both of which are less likely given my hand). Maybe AJs or something like that.


I also sort of thought raising was almost automatic but stopped to rethink after the comment. Thanks for your thoughts.


Claude

The primary reason that I usually raise when first in from late-ish position is that I usually have some equity in possibly being able to steal the blinds. You don't have that on this hand, so you can consider limping in, and I'd probably lean that way given the overall situation. You are going to have to hit your hand to win, so you may as well get in cheap. Other than that, I think that re-raising the river is good. If he comes back at you one more time, I think you only have a call.

Another reason to raise in this situation (besides just the chance to buy the blinds) is to buy the button. You don't want to give the tough player behind you a cheap ride with a mediocre hand, making it tough for you to take control after the flop. So, at a tight table, an automatic raise with this hand from mid- and late-position is okay.


DC

I agree with Dan Z. cold calling 2 bets makes me think the one hand he couldn't possibly have had is AKo. AKs maybe, big pair maybe(later streets make it clear that that wasn't the case). medium pair should've been 3 bet as well. really I don't know what the guy could've had justifies his play on all streets. My read is he sucks(or at least did for one hand).

pre-flop play(the rest of the hand seems pretty routine, including the 3 bet on the river):


I think either raising or calling is okay here, depending on how likely you think the 3 people behind you are to call your raise. if you think you can get it shorthanded with the chumps(as you did) the raise is probably worth it since hitting top, or even 2nd pair might very well be good. limping is certainly exceptable though since it gets you in cheap and when you hit the motherload you can get paid off better. either way I don't think this detail is an important aspect of success at cards. raise, call or fold this hand, they're all okay.


that guy that criticized you doesn't have a clue.

He probably had AJ with a spade.

the flop bet seems to be a place where i would disagree. ONLY because of your reads on the other three players. to begin with your bet will not get out the blinds, and they will pay off when you hit your hand so why not go cheaply till then.

secondly if the player behind is "solid" you should be able to predict his play pretty well. could he have cold called with AQs? maybe even misplayed a AQoff? if so then you are getting raised behind you, by the one guy you fear in the hand. making it more expensive for your draws.

also he is likely to bet it as he is the last to act, no matter what he holds (especially if he isnt realling noting the blinds' play), this will also let you check raise him if you hit your hand on the turn... the only positive is that you may buy position, but with your hand and these players you should be check calling untillyou hit and just plain bettingyour hand if you do.

just some ideas from and alcoholic with a work ethic

tom c

If truly solid I can think of many hands to cold call you with. He knows what the blinds are going to do as well (or better) than you do. You have a tight image (your words) butknows you are smart enough to want to have good position with the blinds. In other words you made it difficult to put you on a particular hand (well done), so He simply cold calls 2 bets to see what the flop brings.


Easy for him to have AKo or AKs or pocket pairs from queens down to eights. he must first of all respect your raise but also believe (correctly in thsi case) that you are trying to isolate and gain position.


IMHO the solid player did what he should have, missed the flop and turn and cut his losses. Does anyone else see this as a rational train of thought?


Jimbo

Sorry about the above. These darn contraptions have a mind of their own. I pretty much agree with your assessment. This was a player I never saw make a clear mistake. He was not as aggressive as some but if he called two cold he surely had a hand. I know he greatly respected my choice of hands to play and as you state knew that three betting probably doesn't get him heads up with me. If I had been in his position I would have flat-called with AK even suited, probably call with AQs but not AQo or AJs, but raise with any pair that I'd call with. So, I still think he had AK and I don't think his BTF call was bad. Given that it was 4-handed, however, I probably would not have taken one off on the flop.


Claude