I got heck for this hand. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Hallett

07-21-2004, 01:10 PM

Super loose table on Party, people raising with absolutely nothing, people calling raises with even less than nothing, I had already been paid off big for a hand where I held A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5 people saw a capped pre-flop, and I hit the nut flush on the turn. With this group of players, I thus figured I could call from the BB with this hand, for one SB. The pre-flop raiser later told me I was wrong, and it was a negative expected value play. I still figure I was ok to call. I would welcome all thoughts.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, SB folds, Hero caps, UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (21 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls $0.25 (All-In).

Final Pot: 26.25 BB
Main Pot: 25.50 BB, between Hero and Button. > Pot won by Hero (25.50 BB).
Pot 2: 0.75 BB, returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 8c 2c (full house, eights full of twos).
Button shows Ts 7s (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 26.25 BB.

stantheman

07-21-2004, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The pre-flop raiser later told me I was wrong, and it was a negative expected value play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm calling 1 bet with any 2 suited in this spot as well.

RED_RAIN

07-21-2004, 01:15 PM

Wow what an awesome lucky table you found.

I fold this preflop regardless of the idiots. There are much better hands to go to war with.

DeathDonkey

07-21-2004, 01:15 PM

Its fine. I'll call with any 2 suited from the BB getting 9:1 everytime.

-DeathDonkey

bisonbison

07-21-2004, 01:16 PM

I don't like the call much, but your position is excellent. Postflop is good.

RED_RAIN

07-21-2004, 01:17 PM

suck out play

easypete

07-21-2004, 01:19 PM

1. You are in the BB. Against a raise from UTG, you must re-raise this hand. Everyone knows that any 8 or any 2 is a great hand in low-limit. UTG could have anything. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AKo, AQs.... you have all these dominated. Raise!!!!

2. Post flop... pretty standard stuff.

3. Post showdown. Criticize button for calling 2 cold w/ T7s.

DeathDonkey

07-21-2004, 01:22 PM

Don't forget about the implied tilt EV...

-DeathDonkey

Hallett

07-21-2004, 01:22 PM

For fun, here is the A-K hand I mentioned in the original post. I loved this table:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (20.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 21.25 BB
Main Pot: 20.25 BB, won by Hero.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ah Kh (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 21.25 BB.

DeathDonkey

07-21-2004, 01:23 PM

This only works live, but...I like 3 betting blind from the BB, that'll teach them not to raise my BB!

-DeathDonkey

DeathDonkey

07-21-2004, 01:27 PM

Don't show, that's lame.

-DeathDonkey

Hallett

07-21-2004, 01:30 PM

I didn't that is BisonBison's hand converter showing to us only. I agree, never show at the table.

DMBFan23

07-21-2004, 01:30 PM

tell the button that cold calling with T7o, capping the turn against the flop capper who also just 3 bet him on the turn, then raising him on the river with a double paired board with TP no kicker is wayyyyyyyyyy more minus EV than your flop call.

Then tell him to shh as you stack his chips.

I absolutely hate condescending "table coaches."

tardigrade

07-21-2004, 01:52 PM

They gifted you with a truly legendary disaster of postflop play. It's hard to believe, but if that's really a standard play for these guys, I'll bet you could get +EV with any two preflop -- definitely any two suited (edit:from BB).

prayformojo

07-21-2004, 02:23 PM

I usually ignore table coaches completely, but on occasion I have thanked them for their advice and assured them that I would use their ideas to win more of their money for myself.

sfer

07-21-2004, 03:00 PM

I'll make this call given your table description and because you're closing the action. I would prefer checkraising the flop if you're pretty confident that UTG will auto-raise there, but betting seems to have worked out okay for you.

Hallett

07-21-2004, 03:14 PM

Thanks, I should think more about the check-raise here. In this case, I figured my hand was so well hidden (who in their right mind plays 8-2), and was worried that I would be behind if the board paired to anyone with a pair better than an 8. Yes, the check-raise deserves some serious thought.