Moving up from 9-18 to 20-40

I'm wondering if anyone can offer some general advice about moving up in limit from 9-18 to 20-40. I can regularly beat 9-18, but I got schooled my second time in 20-40. I think a big problem was my pre-flop starting hands selection which works for my 9-18 games but was obviously (in retrospect) too loose for the tight-aggressive 20-40 games.


Can anyone offer advice about how to adjust my game to move up to 20-40? I'd really like to learn how to play the 20-40 game without (a) getting discouraged about moving up, and (b) losing a huge sum before becoming profitable.

My suggestions:


A) Don't play when Tommy's in the game.


B) Don't limp pre-flop. Pump or dump. This will help with your pre-flop problem. Tommy made a great, great post somewhere recently about this.


C) Schooling is, unfortunately, part of the process, at least it was for me. Still is.


D) If the game is always tight-aggressive, don't play it.


E) Post a few hands from the 20-40 game that schooled you (or from future sessions) and see what the consensus of opinion here is.


F) Don't play when Tommy's in the game. (Did I say that already?)


G) Set a strict limit on the amount you'll lose in one session. I suggest one rack. This will keep the discouragement/pain factor manageable. Don't pay no nevermind to whether you were sucked out on, whether the game was great or bad, whether there was a full moon--don't lose more than one rack in a session while you're trying to get comfortable in the game.


The nice part about posting hands here is that no one (or virtually no one) will call me a frigging idiot when my play, or suggested play for someone else's post, warrants it. It's a good way to get schooled.


Go get 'em!

Andy just about covered it. especially the point(s) about not playing if Tommy's in the game. Also, realize the difference between the 3/2 blind structure and the 4/2 structure. Not only in your game but in your opponents as well.

When I moved from the 9-18 to the yellow chips, I found that the games were a lot tighter and there was a lot more pre-flop raising. Consequently, I found that hands such as suited connectors and Ax-suited had to be thrown away in EP and sometimes MP and could not be called for a raise, as multiway pots of 5 or more occur much less frequently. Players understand the strength of position a lot better, so there is a lot more blind stealing from late position and, consequently, a need for a lot more blind protection or 3-betting from the blinds.


Lastly, I found that I could comfortably dump top pair or even overpairs when facing a check-raise on the turn in 9-18 against most opponents, as many players will not run this play w/o at least 2 pair. In the higher games, raises for free showdowns and check-raise semi-bluffs are very common, so you must call or 3-bet to keep them from stealing from you. BTW, out of all the levels that I have played(started at 3-6 in March '00 and now play 15-30/20-40), 9-18 was my favorite, and the level I stayed the longest in. Maybe it was the red chips or something, I just really enjoyed the action and the games. Hope this helps.


DN

tommy must have horrible game selection

Jen --


I've read some of your posts before, and so I assume that you are planning to move from the LC 9-18 to the LC 20-40?


This is definitely a move that you should make. While I have played in the 20 game much more often than the 9 game, I have always been struck by how tight passive the 9 game is generally.


Move up to the 20, and I'm sure that you have discovered that the game is more aggressive, but I don't think it is particularly tough on a regular basis.


1. Play in the game for a while, or just watch and you will figure out who the good players are who the good players aren't. The good players are very very good, but the bad players are oh, oh my, oh dear, oh so bad.


2. Andy's advice about not playing if Tommy is in the game is (no offense, Andy) just silly. First, Tommy is one player in a 9 handed game. Second, you can learn some things from watching him play. Third, Tommy's shall we say "unique" style of play has a wonderful effect of loosening up the entire table. The game is often better when he is in it than when he isn't, ironically.


3. I also don't like the advice about setting a specific limit for how much you can lose. If you are playing on a tight bankroll, then you can obviously only play down a point where you need to grind out the 9-18 again for a while. Play as long as you feel good. If you feel that you are getting targeted by aggressive experienced players, either tighten up your starting hand selection, move seats to try to position yourself against these players, or just get up. If you are steaming from taking a sick beat, get up. If you are tired, get up. Especially during your first few sessions, you will have to craft a table image for yourself that stops sharks from taking potshots at you. That means weathering the storm for a while. But remember that as the agressiveness goes up, the swings go up as well. You will have to become comfortable with a larger standard deviation, even if your overall profit is higher if you can beat the game.


4. You need to concentrate on sharpening up your post-flop play much more than you need to worry about pre-flop decisions. I agree whole-heartedly with Andy re: decisionmaking on the turn.


5. As an extension of the higher standard deviation comfort issue, you need to have a proportionally larger bankroll than you do for the 9-18.


6. Ok, one more final thing. If you still feel uncomfortable in the LC game after a few sessions, I would suggest checking out the AJ's 15 game as an interim step. It will get you comfortable with larger bets, but the 2/3 blind structure and the general skill level of the players in that game should make it an easier transition to the next level.


Ok, I'm rambling now. I wish you the best of luck.


RH

Good post.


I was, indeed, trying to be a little silly talking about not playing with Tommy. We're buddies, but I've never played with him. He must be tough as hell, though. Your point 2 above is better advice than mine.


I suggested the one rack loss limit for its psychological benefit. I think a case can be made that one should never lose more than one rack in any game. It can be a shock to the system when you're used to playing at one level and then move up and lose five or ten times the largest amount of money you've ever lost before.

I know this advice is contra to most advice on when you should quit or not quit a game.


I don't recall saying anything about decision making on the turn in response to Jen, perhaps you're referring to something I posted previously. But it's a good point. The bigger the game, the much more aggressive and adventurous the average player is on the turn; it's much more important to play well on the turn than to worry about marginal decisions pre-flop.

You said it in your post: you have got to play hands that play well 2- and 3-handed. Your 8/9s on the button after an early position limper and a bunch of folds ain't really what you're looking for.


BIG cards that you can take heads up is what you're looking for, right? Sure, you'll want to look for opportunities to take QJs up against 3 or 4 preflop limpers, but ultimately, you need to be playing dominating hands.


You will also need to make an adjustment in your thinking when it comes to reads. Reads WILL be tougher in these games because the players are more sophisticated (one might think), and therefore throw you more curve balls in terms of varying their play a bit.


The pot odds do not always dictate taking the hand to the river, as they so often do when it's 6 and 7 way action in the smaller games. Play accordingly.


Lastly, I think that one midshift that many people have a hard time making is in aggression. Kept within reason, you want to take control as often as you can. Although I don't necessarily advocate a "raise or fold" policy, I understand the sentiment, and I think there's something to it.


Good luck, even though luck has very little to do with it.

Just out of curiousity, how do the LC 20/40 and the AJ 15/30 games compare to the 15/30 games at Bay 101.


I've noticed the Bay 101 games have been getting a tad tougher over the past year or so; while they still have their share of loose passive players, there are now a few tough regulars that have affected the game overall (in a negative way).


Thanks,


DC

Yes, I'm referring to the LC games.


This is great advice and very helpful. I'll probably sporadically take shots at the 20-40 when the game looks good.


Tommy A. gets a lot of respect on this board, no? /images/wink.gif

Jen,


I too am trying to make the jump. I've been playing a little at Bay 101 in their 15-30 game. It's a must move game, so that keeps it interesting. I've heard that AJ's is a little loose, probably not the best environment for breaking into a new limit.


I've noticed that people bet more when they have good hands at the higher limit -- this may seem obvious, but you see a lot less people making flushes on the end or playing 9,2 offsuit. There's normally a pre-flop raise and usually only a couple of players see the River. The better players know when to get away from a hand. Also, know your pot odds.


Maybe I'll see you at LC.


Shawn

"tight-aggressive 20-40 games."


yuck! why aspire to play in tough games? just keep beating 9-18 or move to LA where the 20-40 is probably far easier than your 6-12 up there.

This has been my impression. Take a trip up and see for yourself. I would say that the LC 20 game is fairly comparable to the Bay 101 15. The AJ's 15 is usually easier than either of the above.

He's earned it.