When do I bet out? When do I check-raise? (w/ example)

[MoreWineII]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 9c Ks (two pair, kings and nines).
UTG+1 shows As Js (two pair, aces and fives).
MP3 shows Jh Kc (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 10.50 BB. </font>

In hindsight, I think this was a tailor-made c/r opportunity on the flop. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And the river bet? Standard or foolish?

[Joe826]

Hey MoreWine,

Usually the only time I would checkraise a flop like this is if a.) there is an aggressive play who you know will bet if checked to or b.) there was a preflop raiser. It sucks to get this checked through, and by betting right out you might get raised so you can 3-bet. River bet is standard.

[thirddan]

i would try a c/r on this flop...there are a lot of players in the pot and no good draws (other than gutshots), i think that a free card is more likely to make someone a hand than to make someones draw...

about the river: standard bet...

[MoreWineII]

I just sat down at this table and had no reads, I should have mentioned that.

I figured the river bet was standard as I was still ahead of any K, save for K5 or AK (whom I would have heard from by now).

Can you guys give me an example of a flop that *does* provide a good opportunity for a check-raise? I think this is one of the main things that I'm struggling with at this point. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
i would try a c/r on this flop...there are a lot of players in the pot and no good draws (other than gutshots), i think that a free card is more likely to make someone a hand than to make someones draw...

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you mean second best hand, else this statement doesn't make any sense to me.

I think this is an "ok" spot to CR but I would be more inclined to bet out because you have many opponents so are likely to get called or played back at whereas if you check you have no way of telegraphing where the bet will come from and if it's from late position than CR'ing may actually make you less money.

A wise man once said, "People like to call, I like to let them." This is a great flop to let that happen.

[MoreWineII]

That makes sense. I think when I posted this, my mind was clouded by the results.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you guys give me an example of a flop that *does* provide a good opportunity for a check-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll one up ya and give you two examples that are completely different uses for the CR.

Example 1:
You are BB with K9s. UTG raises, 3 people cold call, you call. Flop is K96.

- This is a great check raise opportunity to obtain very good value on your hand. You can assume the PFR will bet this flop and because the rest of the field is between him and you then by check raising you allow the rest of the field to call one little bet and then bam, CR central. In fact this flop is so good that if the whole field called I may be tempted to wait until the turn to CR but usually CR'ing the flop is best here.

Example 2:
You are BB with J5. A couple EP players limp and a fairly agressive player limps in late position. Flop is J96.

This is a decent check raise opportunity because you know that if it's checked to the late position player he is likely to bet then you get to raise and confront the field with two bets.

[MoreWineII]

Good stuff. Thanks, mark.

It's amazing that as soon as you think you are coming to an understanding with one aspect of this game, another pops right up and confuses the hell out of you.

I'm sure I'll be posting a few more of these types of hands as the ideas are pounded into my head. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nothumb]

I'd lead this flop. I'd go for a c/r on the turn when the Ace falls.

Is that completely silly? Seems like someone will take a shot here on the turn at 3/6, or catch a pair.

DNTLAG

[MoreWineII]

I think that that's one of my problems. Lately, I seem to be in a pattern of leading with a strong (yet vulnerable) hands, *hoping* for a raise behind me and not getting it.

This *is* Party, isn't it? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MarkD]

Good. Do it. Check raising is one of the most powerful and underused plays in hold'em IMO.

I think a lot of players here need to be check raising the turn more, especially in the 5/10 game. Although it hasn't been working too well for me at the 15 game atm it was very powerful in the 5 game.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd lead this flop. I'd go for a c/r on the turn when the Ace falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is excellent and probably the best line. That ace is a great card for a turn value check raise.