Skirt or smart?

[DeathDonkey]

I got out-aggressivized on this hand and not sure where I should have slowed down or sped up. How does it look?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Thanks in advance,
DeathDonkey

[Bill Smith]

Assuming you didn't have a read, this looks fine to me. Everything points to AQ for UTG, but hopefully you found a nut.

[sublime]

I am not sure I like the turn 3-bet

Its pretty obvious you have a Q and it doesnt seem to bother UTG.

Sometimes calling can be an aggressive move kids /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[dfscott]

I think this looks good as well. In retrospect, the turn 3-bet might be a little too aggressive, but I think I would've done the same. If you're lucky, he has a big pocket pair.

[SomethingClever]

I'd probably fold preflop to that raise.

Based on how you've phrased this post, I am guessing you won after expecting to lose. Although UTG's play is screaming AQ.

I'll guess and say he had KK or AA.

[chief444]

I would much rather call the turn raise and lead the river. Calling the turn raise and check/calling the river would probably be OK as well but I am always weary of giving cheap showdowns to worse hands by letting them scare me with a turn raise. Now that I think about it though I think in this case though it's better to check/call, especially if you can't fold to a river raise (which I wouldn't, hoping for a split vs. losing to AQ).

[Sloats]

I pick 77 or 55




*edit That wouldn't make sense because then he would have lost.

[DeathDonkey]

Who said anything about me winning?

-DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Hi chief,

The call the turn raise and lead the river seems odd to me. If I am just going to call it down, I should just call it down, no? Why decide I'm beat, then bet and let him raise me again? I think your advice is really weak and scared here. I have trips with second best kicker, I don't think his turn raise should make me tuck tail so easily..

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Hi SomethingClever,

Fold preflop for a single raise from the SB? I think that would be a terrible fold at these stakes. If he did have AA or KK I certainly missed a bet or two. I'm really surprised at the weak/tight replies this post is generating. I think I played it too weak, if anything!

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi SomethingClever,

Fold preflop for a single raise from the SB? I think that would be a terrible fold at these stakes. If he did have AA or KK I certainly missed a bet or two. I'm really surprised at the weak/tight replies this post is generating. I think I played it too weak, if anything!

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd call if there were more players involved (for the chance at a big pot with a flush draw). But I don't want to play a possibly dominated hand heads-up or only 3-way here.

On the other hand, if I had a read that the raiser was an idiot, I might 3-bet.

If I'm way off, please tell me. I learn new things every day.

[DeathDonkey]

Your not way off. But at this limit, on Party, I fold this to a single raise from any position about 0.1% of the time (if I had an amazing read on a weak tight player raising UTG). The starting hands you will be up against may dominate you, but you could be dominating them just as much at this level of play. I think this hand has to be played.

-DeathDonkey

[tardigrade]

I thought about this for a while, and I think you're right about just calling the turn meaning you need to check the river (since if you're behind you save a bet, and if you're ahead you can often induce a bet by checking to the raiser and win just as much).

I guess the question is: do you think your opponent with KK or the like will call you down after your 3-bet or fold? If you think he's going to fold to the 3-bet, you don't gain anything by doing it except risk. But if you think he'll at least call you down with a lesser hand, then it's the right play.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi chief,

The call the turn raise and lead the river seems odd to me. If I am just going to call it down, I should just call it down, no? Why decide I'm beat, then bet and let him raise me again? I think your advice is really weak and scared here. I have trips with second best kicker, I don't think his turn raise should make me tuck tail so easily..

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
UTG raised pf, 3-bet the flop, and again raised the turn (after the Q paired and you again bet into him). What do you put him on? There are only a few hands left I can think of that may play this way. They are AQ, KQ, AA, or KK. There may be other possibilities for a very LAG opponent but I see these as the most likely and would start to become more than a little concerned about AQ. If there were more opponents in the pot I would like the 3-bet as you have an overlay but you are now heads-up. The reason I would normally consider a stop and go here is you don't give KK or AA an opportunity to check through the river. If you do this consistently opponents will routinely raise the turn with mediocre hands and then check the river through unless they improve. This is no good for you. However, I'm really close to 50/50 at that point as to whether you hold the best hand or not. No way am I folding this but I'd rather not give the opponent a chance to cap the turn and bet the river. The stop and go is sort of a compromise between weak tight and over aggressive.

Given the action on the previous streets, his turn raise is telling you he isn't worried about trip Q's. The question is is he lying or on KQ also or are you in big trouble?

[meep_42]

I think his betting is consistent with 77 or 55 (to a lesser extent). I'd have definitely called the raise on the turn and check/called the river, though.

-d

[tardigrade]

[ QUOTE ]
I think his betting is consistent with 77 or 55 (to a lesser extent).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard for me to think he's in there with 77 when he raised preflop UTG. I guess I've seen stranger, though...

[DeathDonkey]

Hi chief,

Well your tugging on me to save the bet against AQ, and I want to go your way, but I still don't know. I remember back when I played way weaker and always feared a bigger hand, and now maybe I crossed the line too much and got a bit LAGgy this hand; it's hard to say.

I agree with your read completely, KQ, AQ, AA, KK is what I thought too. Here's the thing though: I can beat or chop with all but the AQ, and with me having three queens, AA and KK are much more likely I think. Now we can debate the merits of him raising the turn after I bet into him again if he had KK or AA, but to be fair, I could have easily decided to C/R with trip queens. My lead on the turn may suggest I do not have a queen and were I UTG with AA, I would probably raise the turn too - I guess this is more evidence of my aggressiveness that you might disapprove of.

So like I said, I don't know. I think if I used the stop n go idea, he would raise the river and I still wouldn't know, but maybe that would be better than 3 betting the turn and getting it capped. Of course I could have led the river after the cap but that's really getting kinda LAGgy isn't it?

I always wonder how I would debate things from the other side, but I don't think we'll get to find out today, as he did have AA and I missed at least one bet.

Thanks for all your comments,
DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

I have yet to find a 0.50/1 Party opponent who would muck AA or KK on the turn here. I also doubt that would be a good laydown against most Party opponents. If I do find one, I'll be sure to make a note of it, that would be a rare bird indeed.

-DeathDonkey