Good position...no hand

[DeathDonkey]

This was a strange hand where I wasn't sure what I wanted to come, or what to do if it came. Any comments appreciated:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) checks, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Thanks in advance,
DeathDonkey

[imsomoney]

The SB could have been slowplaying a high flush, but more likely he was holding the K of clubs. If you wanted to represent the flush I would have raised the turn. Otherwise, I would have folded here because, assuming he just has a pair of kings, you only have two outs and the pot isn't that big....Alas, the miracle river card saved you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[btspider]

Take the free turn card and then fold the turn.

Calling the turn and not raising your miracle card is inconsistent. If the set will be no good, don't call the turn.

[stantheman]

I don't understand your line of thinking - your turn call says you don't put SB on a made flush (because I assume if you did, you would fold your marginal draw). So, you hit your miracle 6 and now you decide he must have a made hand so you just call? I think you cost yourself a bet here.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
This was a strange hand where I wasn't sure what I wanted to come, or what to do if it came.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a pretty good reason not to bet the flop and a very good reason not to call the turn to me. You caught your set on the river and still can't raise. You certainly couldn't have felt too good about a fourth club giving you the flush but only holding the 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Why not just check the flop and fold the turn?

[DeathDonkey]

Hi imsomoney,

I thought that any club would be an out on the turn, once it was heads up. I would also never raise that turn as it won't get a fold at this limit in my experience.

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Hi Stan,

Definitely I should have raised the river, your absolutely correct here.

-DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Hi chief,

Check/fold on the flop once it was checked to me closing the action? I think this is a good spot to bet and clear out random clubs above 6 and there remains the fact I could have the best hand. I definitely COULD raise on the river, in fact I should have, but I felt any club would be an out once it was folded to me on the turn.

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

SB had AJ of hearts and I missed a bet on the river.

-DeathDonkey

[Gally327]

That hand you showed us looked like two drag queens in a boxing ring.J/K Both you and the SB's play was pretty weak. I don't see how you could think that a six of clubs wins it when you got called on the flop and bet into on the turn.(Possible Semi-Bluff) Then when you got your God-send you totally played it weakly. I just think the whole hand was an entirely weak play made by faulty reasoning and the misunderstanding of profitable play. I dont mean to offend you, it could have been one of those late night hands right before you decide to end your session for the night. But I would rexamine my logic behind those plays I made if I was you.
Peace buddy,
Ryan

[chief444]

Any A or K /images/graemlins/club.gif is not clearing out anywhere. Any 9 or 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif is probably calling at this limit as well. There are three overcards on the flop. There are 4 overcards and a possible straight on the turn. There is a fairly small pot in the middle. You are in a loose game with 6 opponents.

I think this was a very poorly played hand from the flop on and you got lucky. You seem to be justifying your play here by thinking a 6 high flush would often be good against 6 opponents. It may have been this time but do you honestly believe it would have been often? Do you think your underpair is good against 6 opponents often? Do you think opponents at this limit are folding hands you want to fold often? I'm glad this one worked out for you but I think you need to really try to consider these question objectively and see if you feel you played this as you should have. I could be wrong but I think there were several mistakes here. And yes, I do agree that you should have raised the river.

[DeathDonkey]

Hi chief,

Ok you've thrown alot at me here, so let me try to break it down into sections:

On the flop: "Well, that flop doesn't have a 6 in it, so I'm not happy. But wait, I have 6 opponents and each and every one of them just checked to me. Clearly, this is a scary flop for everybody (or they are slowplaying something big), and I do have the 6 of clubs as a backup (if they have a pair), or they might have the singleton ace or king of clubs and my pair of 6s is beating them right now. Let's go ahead and take a shot at this 7 sb pot for 1 sb."

On the turn: "Ok 3 opponents called my bet, but no one raised, so I am probably behind to a bigger pair, or they have a single club on a bigger draw than me, or both. Now the SB bets out on this blank turn, uh oh, he probably doesn't want to give me a free card and has a pair at least, either that or he's making a strange bluff with 4 clubs, or both. I guess I'll have to fold at this point, as I am probably behind and drawing to a dominated hand...what's this?! The other two folded and now its just me and the bettor. Well, if he has a pair, or even two pair (without a big club) I have the odds to hit a club, and maybe he checks through on the river and I can see if these measly 6s hold up. I call."

On the river: "Well I missed my club, but this is even better, now I hope he has a pair or two and pays off my raise. But wait, maybe he was slow playing the flopped flush and I'm throwing away money here. Lucky for me I'm in a moment of stupid paranoia and just call what is obviously the best card in the deck for me, but at least I save a bet when my read is dead wrong and I was drawing dead!"

Clearly the river is misplayed, but the other streets I would debate you with to some extent. Some of the criticisms and rhetorical questions you have tossed at me twist what happened ("6 high flush...good against 6 opponents") to sound worse than they really were. A scary flop came down, I had a crappy draw and a crappy pair and it got checked to me in the best position at the table. I took a shot and it somewhat worked, the field was thinned. Then on the turn I would have given up, but everyone folded except me and I thought I had proper odds to hit a club against what I thought to be a bigger pair. I guess I don't see what's so scary about betting from the best position on a flop nobody seems to like.

-DeathDonkey

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop: "Well, that flop doesn't have a 6 in it, so I'm not happy. But wait, I have 6 opponents and each and every one of them just checked to me. Clearly, this is a scary flop for everybody (or they are slowplaying something big), and I do have the 6 of clubs as a backup (if they have a pair), or they might have the singleton ace or king of clubs and my pair of 6s is beating them right now. Let's go ahead and take a shot at this 7 sb pot for 1 sb."


[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I disagree is just because they are scared to bet the flop doesn't mean they will fold. You are almost always beat here with no chance of folding the best hand. Yes your pair may be beating a singleton A /images/graemlins/club.gif or K /images/graemlins/club.gif now however if one of these is out it has far more equity in this pot than your hand since another opponent surely paired some portion of the board. I just don't see the bet gaining you much. You aren't folding high clubs OR better hands now out and it is not a good value bet.

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn: "Ok 3 opponents called my bet, but no one raised, so I am probably behind to a bigger pair, or they have a single club on a bigger draw than me, or both. Now the SB bets out on this blank turn, uh oh, he probably doesn't want to give me a free card and has a pair at least, either that or he's making a strange bluff with 4 clubs, or both. I guess I'll have to fold at this point, as I am probably behind and drawing to a dominated hand...what's this?! The other two folded and now its just me and the bettor. Well, if he has a pair, or even two pair (without a big club) I have the odds to hit a club, and maybe he checks through on the river and I can see if these measly 6s hold up. I call."


[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I see your logic but just don't agree. Being heads up at this point does make a difference however you still need to consider the fact that there were 6 opponents to see the flop. So even though you are heads-up, you are really heads-up against the best of those 6 hands. This is quite a bit different than being heads-up on the flop in terms of the relative strength of your hand.