Calling Two Cold Preflop

[pokerkai]

I enter most pots with a raise and am often reraising or reraised, making it 2 more sb for those unfortunate players in who limped in EP.

So now...
Why is it that so many ppl will call those 4 cold?

It just doesnt make any sense to me. If it is worth 6 now...why wasnt it worth a raise preflop...or worth capping.
Do ppl honestly think their KJ isnt dominated ? or that their AJ isnt in trouble?

I could maybe understand calling two cold with a wired pair if there are a lot of players.

Maybe im just steaming after taking a bunch of runner runner hits tonight.

Someone please tell me if my reasoning is wrong.
Basically, answer me this...

QUESTION ONE:
Is there any hand that you guys regularly limp with that is worth two more small bets with solid raisers behind you preflop, knowing the hand will be 4 handed at most????????

QUESTION TWO:

If there is a raise preflop in front of you from a solid player, what hands do you regularly cold call with, knowing the pot will be 5 handed at most and more likely 3-4 handed???

See...I never cold call two preflop. If its good enough to play in a raised pot, Im 3 betting. Is this a weakness in my game? Am I too agressive????

(Yes i know that you have to vary your play sometimes...and I do in live ring games...but this is online party)

[nepenthe]

Whine whine whine.

You're not cut out for The Mighty PartyPoker. Go to Paradise and look for $40/$80 tables with the lowest % of players who see the flop in addition to lowest average pot size. You'll be all set to destroy the game then.

[MarkL444]

There arent very many hands, if any, that make it correct to call two more bets cold after limping. Perhaps 99 or Axs?

I typically cold call 2 bets with AQo. If there are already a few players I am just calling with JJ.

I dont know if you are really curious about these two questions or just needed a way to vent the river beats tonight. I used to get annoyed when I would raise UTG with a hand like KK and get like 5 callers. Obviously this is nonsense. When your opponents play poorly, you gain.

[bisonbison]

You are upset that your opponents are making expensive mistakes. You should move back down to the micros til you understand where your winnings come from and learn to adjust from the style that you feel you should be playing to the style that has the highest EV against loose players.

[Alobar]

Be glad they call 2 and 3 more cold, if they didn't you wouldn't make money. Yes they are stupid, but this is good for you.

[pokerkai]

Sigh...youd think this site would be inhabited by more people with constructive criticism rather then high horse riders.

Lemme clarify.
1. I posted this in small stakes for the expressed purpose of trying to understand the psyche of small stakes loose players.
2. I wanted to know whether MY OWN PLAY of never calling 2 sb cold preflop is optimal or close to optimal strategy.
3. And if im not playing optimal strategy (or close to)
What cold calls do you feel are worthy?
4. Could we just answer my questions?
5. I am not whining, Im just trying to learn something from these beats. Is it a leak in my game, or are these coldcallers gaining EV that I am missing out on?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh...youd think this site would be inhabited by more people with constructive criticism rather then high horse riders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, if you want help, calling the forum a bunch of arrogant pricks isn't a good way to start. Even if it's true. And let me clarify: I don't have a horse to ride but I'm fairly confident my doo-doo smells like roses.

[ QUOTE ]
1. I posted this in small stakes for the expressed purpose of trying to understand the psyche of small stakes loose players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I wanted to know whether MY OWN PLAY of never calling 2 sb cold preflop is optimal or close to optimal strategy.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of instances to coldcall. You pointed out a common one, i.e. you have a pair and are looking to flop a set.

[ QUOTE ]
3. And if im not playing optimal strategy (or close to)
What cold calls do you feel are worthy?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Could we just answer my questions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe.

[ QUOTE ]
5. I am not whining, Im just trying to learn something from these beats. Is it a leak in my game, or are these coldcallers gaining EV that I am missing out on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking if taking bad beats to longshot draws or dominated hands is a leak in your game? Or are you asking if it's +EV to coldcall multiple bets with hands that are likely dominated?

[Rico Suave]

pokerkai:

[ QUOTE ]
QUESTION ONE:
Is there any hand that you guys regularly limp with that is worth two more small bets with solid raisers behind you preflop, knowing the hand will be 4 handed at most????????

[/ QUOTE ]

Often it is correct to call 2 more after limping with a pocket pair

[ QUOTE ]
QUESTION TWO:

If there is a raise preflop in front of you from a solid player, what hands do you regularly cold call with, knowing the pot will be 5 handed at most and more likely 3-4 handed???


[/ QUOTE ]

You really should not be regularly cold calling with anything. But there are times where I would cold call with a pocket pair, or big suited connectors..but that really is dependent on the # of opponents, position, relative position to preflop raiser, etc. It really does not come up all that often.

--Rico

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you asking if taking bad beats to longshot draws or dominated hands is a leak in your game? Or are you asking if it's +EV to coldcall multiple bets with hands that are likely dominated?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it ever +EV to cold call with hands that are likely dominated?

[ QUOTE ]
There are lots of instances to coldcall. You pointed out a common one, i.e. you have a pair and are looking to flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be very interested in knowing what you feel is worthy of cold calling but not worth raising and not muck worthy. I honestly can not think of many instances where coldcalling is a good strategy.
I can see the arguement for the wired pair. I just cannot justify to myself a reason for cold calling for hands like KJ, AQ, QJ...etc. in a straightforward 2/4 party game.

Thanks in advance for any constructive criticsm.

[sfer]

I will coldcall Axs after other coldcallers all day long on Party 2/4 and I know for certain that I'm dominated. And I will call a lot of raises out the BB with a lot of hands if I'm in a multiway pot.

[chief444]

I think it was sfer who posed a question a few weeks ago in the micro forum (probably in response to yet another bad beat post). It sums this up nicely and is something that everyone should understand but I suspect many don't. The question was something like:

"You raise AA from UTG in a full limit game. What is the optimal number of callers?"

I think this should just be the new standardized response to any such post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoreWineII]

Unfortunately, the answer(s) to your question(s) is(are), I think, too situational.

For me personally, it depends on who's doing the raising, among other things. Is it two guys who 3-bet/capped with 88/KJos two hands ago? Or is it the guys who haven't shown down anything but AA or KK so far in the last three hours?

Am I UTG and in crappy position the entire hand or am I on the button? Am I getting the correct odds?

etc etc etc.

I think there are too many variables to give you a universal answer.

Am I wrong here? Do you really care if 9 people call you over the span of a million hands if you have the best hand preflop every time?

[bisonbison]

I think it was sfer who posed a question a few weeks ago in the micro forum

Yeah, I also post this on a regular basis.

On the other hand, I was looking through some old posts of mine from January and February, and inevitably if a new poster posted and the first response was me telling truth to power, that poster still has less than 50 posts half a year later. Except for Greg J and sublime. Who I now respect more than ever.

It seems I've mellowed out.

[chief444]

Didn't mean to steal your thunder bison. /images/graemlins/smile.gif That's the first time I read it and I thought it was a very clever response.

[bisonbison]

Didn't mean to steal your thunder bison.

Well, I stole it from someone else.

[sfer]

I'm flattered but I wasn't the originator of this line.

[jeffseib]

Here are some interesting things to keep in mind when cold calling two bets.

Pocket pair --> Trips or better on flop = 7.51:1

Suited Connectors --> Straight or flush by river =~ 10.4:1
SC --> Straight on flop = 1.3%
SC --> Flush on flop = .84%
SC --> Straight by river = 2.8%
(OESD or DBB on flop = 9%, 8 out Strt --> Strt = 3.1.5%)
SC --> Flush by river = 3.4%
(4 Flush on flop = 11%, 4 Flush --> Flush = 35%)

If you have 5 cold callers in front of you, your the implied odds =~ 16:2 or 8:1
(10 SB pre-flop, 2 SB on flop and 4 SB on turn = 16 SB)

This would make cold calling of pairs +EV in this situation. You would need better than 10.4:1 implied odds to cold call two bets with suited connectors.

I think that my math is correct. If it is not please let me know.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
I just cannot justify to myself a reason for cold calling for hands like KJ, AQ, QJ...etc. in a straightforward 2/4 party game.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Never call 2 bets cold" is pretty much a mantra around these parts. It's dogma. Asking a 2+2'er if you should cold call regularly is like asking your doctor if you should eat poop.

/mc

[sublime]

Except for Greg J and sublime. Who I now respect more than ever.

I dont know what flatters me more, that you respect me more or that you had any for me to begin with /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sublime]

See...I never cold call two preflop. If its good enough to play in a raised pot, Im 3 betting. Is this a weakness in my game? Am I too agressive????

A weakness? Not at all

Too aggressive? Well it depends on whether or not you are 3 betting with the correct hands.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
"Never call 2 bets cold" is pretty much a mantra around these parts. It's dogma. Asking a 2+2'er if you should cold call regularly is like asking your doctor if you should eat poop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly not true. There are situations in loose games where coldcalling is appropriate.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
It just doesnt make any sense to me. If it is worth 6 now...why wasnt it worth a raise preflop...or worth capping.
Do ppl honestly think their KJ isnt dominated ? or that their AJ isnt in trouble?



[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares what they think!You should be encouraging people to cold call with average hands,you will make the money in the long run.
So would you complain if someone cold called your 3 bet pf with 72o,I would love it!! I would make instant friends with those people and continually complement them on their "great plays" and console them on their "bad beats",the MUPPETS /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Never call 2 bets cold" is pretty much a mantra around these parts. It's dogma. Asking a 2+2'er if you should cold call regularly is like asking your doctor if you should eat poop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly not true. There are situations in loose games where coldcalling is appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

"regularly"

/mc

[StellarWind]

Usually if I limped UTG with a pocket pair I would be willing to call two more bets. I'm getting some direct pot odds for my set draw and I hope to light you up postflop. Dueling premium hands tend not to get the joke until it is very expensive for them.

Hands like QJs and JTs would attract me if there were many players. Note that these hands aren't just draw builders, they are also more difficult for a PFR to duplicate or dominate.

Under normal table conditions I will not be the first person to call two bets cold after an open-raise. I would raise-or-fold. This rule does not apply when I have paid a blind and can play for one more bet.

Once several people are in the pot I start considering coldcalling with hands that figure to be worst but have big-hand potential: pocket pairs, big suited connectors, suited aces. Raising is bad with these implied odds hands because I want to minimize upfront cost and encourage more players. Also there are already too many opponents to bully my way to victory postflop, which is one normal goal for a reraise.

[ QUOTE ]
I enter most pots with a raise

[/ QUOTE ]
Without knowing exactly what this means, let me observe that the most successful small stakes styles include a fair amount of limping in loose passive games. I almost wonder from your remarks if part of your situation is that your more observant opponents have seen you raise before and are adjusting.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
It just doesnt make any sense to me. If it is worth 6 now...why wasnt it worth a raise preflop...or worth capping.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you are in a bakery and see a yummy dessert, do you pay extra because it looks really great or do you just pay the marked price?

They called preflop because they enjoy playing hands and calling is what it costs. This is the universal explanation for why so many players will pay anything to call but rarely raise. They aren't investing, they're shopping.