Value Raise

[Schneids]

I'm in a live game at canterbury that is playing very loose passive. Typically 4-6 to the flop for 1 bet unless the kid next to me or myself have raised PF.

4 limpers to me in the CO and I raise K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. Both blinds call, as do all limpers.

Flop (7BB): [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif]
...checked around.

Turn (7BB): 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif [4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif]
...checked around.

River (7BB): Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif [8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif]
...Both blinds check, UTG bets, EP calls, MP calls, I raise, both blinds fold, UTG 3-bets, 2 folds, I fold.

UTG plays very straight forward, is fairly passive, and amongst hands I've witnessed, he's played 65s and cold called two bets with mid pair and then check raised when he hit two pair on the next street. He has also checked it down on a couple of rivers that I think by 2+2 standards would be clear value bets.

I assume this all is standard?

[Haupt_234]

I would have bet the flop.

1.) It is a scare flop and many will dump their hands.
2.) You may pick up a free turn card.
3.) You will charge flush and straight draws that you are actually beating with K high.

Haupt_234

[pokerkai]

Id bet the flop but otherwise, looks good.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet the flop.

1.) It is a scare flop and many will dump their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a loose passive game. They'll call with T8 on the flop because I must have AK and they still can make two pair.

[ QUOTE ]
2.) You may pick up a free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
True. But I may get another free card anyway (which happened here). Or if the turn hits someone they may bet out anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
3.) You will charge flush and straight draws that you are actually beating with K high.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll also get called by ace-high hands I'm not beating. Plus the pot is large enough where it isn't a mistake for my opponents to call. So if I'm not winning, and my opponents aren't making a mistake by calling, then what's the point in betting?

My contention is this fact, plus the fact that a freecard is not going to hurt my hand. There's already a pair on the flop, so, if I make a two pair it's probably going to be the best two pair. IE on this particular board my reverse domination is limited to entirely being against Q8.

The fact is I'm probably not going to win this hand without actually making the best hand (hitting a queen or king). There's 6 other hands in here, betting seems like a way to make it a larger pot still with 6 people in, when I am both probably losing and slim on outs.

In loose passive games I only like to bet when I've actually been hit with a hand. There's no shame in checking after PFR.

...My .02 regarding checking the flop.

[Joe Tall]

Seems standard; no I don't bet the flop either.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Trix]

Yep, standard.
With your description if UTG.

[fryKing]

given your description of UTG, I'm just curious what you put him on? It seems to me like checking a 5 twice isn't exactly "very straightfoward" but maybe that's a matter of opinion.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
given your description of UTG, I'm just curious what you put him on? It seems to me like checking a 5 twice isn't exactly "very straightfoward" but maybe that's a matter of opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on exactly a straight when he 3-bet. I agree he'd have bet the turn, most likely, if he held a five.

And, considering there was a bet, and two callers before me, that automatically means at least one us who is in doesn't have a queen.

I value raised the river in hopes that worse queens and lower pairs would call. I dumped when a passive player three-bet me and I concluded I was very likely, if not always, beat.

[arkady]

looks perfect, especially like the river fold - i suspect many would be itching to call that last one.

[joker122]

I like it all all streets, Schneids. For there to be any value to a semi bluff there has to be some chance your opponents will fold. No one's folding here.

[ QUOTE ]
1.) It is a scare flop and many will dump their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a scare flop. Overcards and small-mid pairs are calling, especially in this game type.