China is overflopulated.

[bisonbison]

This is from a few days ago, so I don't remember my reads.

UTG is apparently quite the loose-passive, 50% in, 2% raise.
MP3 is more maniacal - in for 50%, raising 15%
6 hands with CO, so...


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP3 calls $0.50 (All-In), <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (14.87 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

River plan? Can I cap that turn?

[ScottTheFish]

UTG is stinking of QT for the turned broadway /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Calling your bet on the flop, then capping once it's multiway is exactly what you would expect with a OESD.

My plan for the river is to hope the board pairs. /images/graemlins/smile.gif If it doesn't, I'm calling down. You have a passive player betting into a crowd after the flop was capped. i don't think he has 2 pair or a lower set.

Of course my hand reading skills suck so who knows.

PS I can't wait to see what CO is calling along with. Crazy hand.

[Alobar]

When the passive UTG bets out the turn and then 3 bets it, warning bells go off. I don't cap here and I really wanna see the river pair the board

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is stinking of QT for the turned broadway /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Calling your bet on the flop, then capping once it's multiway is exactly what you would expect with a OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience, loose-passives don't bet their draws for value so I don't think he has QT after he check/capped the flop. I think you're ahead on the turn and would cap it.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, loose-passives don't bet their draws for value so I don't think he has QT after he check/capped the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He played it just like I would have an OESD. But nobody ever accused me of being passive, so you're probably right.

I guess he could have a lower set and and was going for the old wait and raise on the turn play, and changed his mind once the raising war broke out. Like I said, my hand reading skills suck /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Very interested to see the results of this one.

[bisonbison]

I agree with the river check-call on a non-pairing hand.

Here are three river scenarios to think about:

A) River: (26.87 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

B) River: (26.87 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

C) River: (26.87 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Remember, hero acts first.

[ScottTheFish]

I think I would check with any of the 3 and check-raise. There is NO way the river is getting checked thru on this hand. I don't go for river CRs too much, but I think this is a good spot.

[sthief09]

when do you start 3/6?

[sthief09]

if an A slides off, I go on the defensive. if a J /images/graemlins/club.gif comes I'll bet expecting a raise from a flush.

[bisonbison]

when do you start 3/6?

I have &gt; 600BB for it, but my 2/4 win rate this year remains hovering around 1.75BB/100, so I've been kind of hesitant.

On the other hand, since I got laid off from the job I hated in April, my 2/4 win rate has been 2.5 all 4-tabling (admittedly over &lt; 40k hands), which I'm perfectly happy with. Funny how being happier lets you play better, eh?

I guess the most important thing is that I'm feeling pretty confident and centered about my strategic thinking. I usually know when something doesn't feel right, even if I don't know the right play. That's more important than whatever this month's random walk win-rate says.

So maybe I should start hunting for soft 3/6 games. I think I'm just afeared of the tighter more aggressive games and the concomitant swings.

[Baulucky]

I don't cap the turn there, and I pray for a paired board to cap the river, otherwise I check-call.

[ QUOTE ]
So maybe I should start hunting for soft 3/6 games. I think I'm just afeared of the tighter more aggressive games and the concomitant swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I thought I was the only one...

[sfer]

I don't see why you capped the turn if your intention is to check/call the river unimproved.

[Tosh]

Don't hunt the soft games. Find the tough games and make them look soft. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is stinking of QT for the turned broadway /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Calling your bet on the flop, then capping once it's multiway is exactly what you would expect with a OESD.


[/ QUOTE ]

!?!? maybe you'd expect that from a really good player, but a call reraise on the flop and my read is a set or two pair.

I put the CO on JJ or AA, and UTG on 44,KJ and QT in that order.
--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

I agree, the line should be either cap lead or call check call.

--turnipmonster

[MoreWineII]

It would make me a little nervous when that "loose-passive" came a-firin'. I like a call on the turn and a check/call on the river unless the board pairs.

Or the fourth K comes. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Surfbullet]

Given the action on the turn, I think 2 pair with an Ace is a likely holding, so I'm slowing down the river if the A hits.

With a J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif I'm going for a check-raise, expecting one of the 2 pair or lower sets to bet, with the J/images/graemlins/club.gif I'm betting and hoping for a raise so I can 3-bet, as I think a raise is more likely with the flush out there.

Surf

[bisonbison]

Guys, I think I felt that capping the turn was a mistake the second I hit raise. (Actually, I think I knew it beforehand.)

I agreed with Stheif's ABC plays.

The real river card was C:

River: (26.87 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls.

[bisonbison]

Don't hunt the soft games. Find the tough games and make them look soft.

Charge of the Light Brigade. Galipoli. The films of Dudley Moore. You brits are always up for a headlong charge into peril.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, I think I felt that capping the turn was a mistake the second I hit raise. (Actually, I think I knew it beforehand.)

[/ QUOTE ]

why? on the turn, I don't think you can reliably put someone on exactly QT after a flop call reraise. jamming is actually pretty marginal vs. two players anyways. of course the river crying calls mean that someone must have had it. what were your opponent's hands?

--turnipmonster

[tolbiny]

I think one of the concerns is how the river will play out after he caps the turn. Are you going to check a blank on the river after capping the turn? When he is ahead it kills his river action, ie. its tough for a player with a flush draw if the board pairs (and also hits the flush) to give more action after a 4 bet on the turn. Is he going to assume that the two players capping it have broadway? Many players will get passive here (espcially with a non nut flush) and just call losing his chance to three bet.

I know, i know, the J /images/graemlins/club.gif is just one card of many that can come- but after teh cap our hero is usually betting out on the river, and the times he is behind he is getting popped by broadway.
I dont know- it just feels like an awkard position... sometimes i like the cap, since i have seen many terrible players turn over many terrible hands here. Other times i just dont like the cap since i feel forced to bet the river and pay off a raise when behind...

How about this- cap the turn- check call any non paired river, bet out any paired river.

Somebody tell me why this is wrong.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

How about this- cap the turn- check call any non paired river, bet out any paired river.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, I would checkraise a nonclub board pair a lot of times. put yourself in your opponent's shoes, would you fail to bet the river if it was checked to you with the nut straight?

--turnipmonster

[tolbiny]

would you fail to bet the river if it was checked to you with the nut straight?

Would I? NO.
would people i play with? yes

but what about capping the turn and checking a blank on the river? please, somebody tell me this is wrong

[cold_cash]

I think it's because if you cap the turn you're assuming you're ahead, therefore a blank on the river shouldn't make you change your mind all of a sudden.

I don't know for sure though, just thinking out loud.

[tolbiny]

the hand does change because the number of players who will call your turn bet might not be the same number of players that will call your river bet. Ie a player with AQ still has a gut shot on the turn, but not hitting he might fold the river if its a blank (weather or not he will call with tp isnt my point).
Point is that on certain streets you will get more callers than on later streets, simply for the fact that you can never increase in callers as the hand progress, only lose them. Because of this you have to be more sure that you are ahead on the river to bet, than you do on the turn (although this changes depending on weather or not your hand can improve).

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG is stinking of QT for the turned broadway /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Calling your bet on the flop, then capping once it's multiway is exactly what you would expect with a OESD.


[/ QUOTE ]

!?!? maybe you'd expect that from a really good player, but a call reraise on the flop and my read is a set or two pair.

I put the CO on JJ or AA, and UTG on 44,KJ and QT in that order.
--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I also read UTG for set or two pair. His low raise% PF would suggest he wouldn't raise draws.

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
if an A slides off, I go on the defensive. if a J /images/graemlins/club.gif comes I'll bet expecting a raise from a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a J /images/graemlins/club.gif came, I'd think a raise would more likely come from another boat, given the flop/turn action.

Given no one raised the river, I think someone's got three pair and maybe a straight is out there.

[bisonbison]

UTG did indeed have QTo for the turned nuts.

CO had AKo for the scary, unsatisfying calldown.

Oh, and thanks to the nudge from this thread, I went and had a 600 hand +50BB day at 3/6 today. I short-term variance goot.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I have &gt; 600BB for it, but my 2/4 win rate this year remains hovering around 1.75BB/100, so I've been kind of hesitant.


[/ QUOTE ]

1.75BB/100 is pretty good. Remember you are multitabling and against opponents who are more aggressive and more varied than in live rooms.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm just afeared of the tighter more aggressive games and the concomitant swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

The swings are the tough. Seems like there is more ups and downs on Party than on Paradise, but I win more or Party, so that's where I play.