Terrible play(s)?

Loose 20-40 game w/ 2 fish.


I have red Aces in the cutoff. Two fishy EPs limp, LAG woman raises in MP, I 3-bet in cutoff, both blinds call.


Flop:

Jh6h2c


Check to me, I bet, SB calls, BB(solid female HP dealer) check-raises, one fish cold calls, I call.


Turn: 3h

Jh6h2c3h


SB checks, BB bets, Fish folds, I raise w/ my nut flush draw, SB folds, BB calls.


River: Jc


Jh-6h-2c-3h-Jc


BB bets. I call.


Flame away.

I have a hard time seeing what she could have that you can beat, except for KK or QQ.


There was no straight draw on the flop. She likely had a J with good kicker, set, or a flush draw, all of which got there. Two pair on the flop is also not likely, especially a 6-2, which is the only one which didn't get there.

looks like you played it well although the river's not looking so good for you. she would have KK though so your call is worthwhile. you played it all excellently.


i just wanted non-LA players to reread this passage and keep it in mind whenever they hear one of us LA players talk about being in a loose game:


"I have red Aces in the cutoff. Two fishy EPs limp, LAG woman raises in MP, I 3-bet in cutoff, both blinds call."


got it guys? "both blinds call"

nm

I find that it's very rare to have the best hand after you've raised the turn and are still bet into on the river. The problem is, you've made the pot so big that an incorrect fold now would be a complete disaster.


Just curious, why did you feel the need to raise the turn?

I felt that I should raise the turn in order to:


A) knock out the SB who could have any Jack.

B) get a free showdown or get an extra bet if the heart came on the river.


I was 99% sure that I was beat on the river, but as you say, the pot was just so large that the miniscule possibility that she had KK(one heart) made me call since there were 15+BB in the pot. When I was check raised on flop, i knew she had either a set or a K high flush draw w/ a small possibility of AJ, it probably would have made better sense to call on the turn, but since I knew she didnt have the nut flush, it would be hard for her to 3 bet me. Of course, since she had the set, I have less outs for my flush(2h). I think this was not too terrible, except on the river.


Another reason that I did this was I was a bit mad. I had been dealt AA and KK FIVE TIMES in the last 4 dealers and not a one of them held up, even heads up in position(always raising or reraising preflop). I wasnt pissed, just kind of dumbfounded(and a little mad, I admit). That's one way to bleed 3 racks back into a JUICY 20-40 game after building up to 5 racks. How nice. It was probably smart of me to leave soon after.


DN

you stopped a bluff on the turn, right?

I like it all the way to the river. While there is a chance she has QQ or KK this probably isnt the case since she bet into you again on the river. The top card pairing, plus you raising on 3 flush cards on board would almost for sure scare her into checking and calling on the river. I see this as a pretty interesting hand because you can read it so well, she either has AJs, KJs, QJs or a set. I would guess that she probably has the set based on her river play, but still she is very unlikely to have anything else. Even though the pot is huge I cant see a call being right on the river with this hand. If you were heads up and she is bold enough to try to get you to lay down a big hand in a big pot then you would of course have to pay off but I doubt she would try this since any hand she would have all along is either improved (say 3 J's), already there on the flop (set) or maybe she played her flush draw oddly and has that, or she would have folded other hands earlier. She probably knows that it is nearly impossible to get you to lay down on the river so she's gotta have someting big here and that is at least 3 jacks.


Kris

[i just wanted non-LA players to reread this passage and keep it in mind whenever they hear one of us LA players talk about being in a loose game:


"I have red Aces in the cutoff. Two fishy EPs limp, LAG woman raises in MP, I 3-bet in cutoff, both blinds call."


got it guys? "both blinds call"]


Heh. I just realized that I'd read that passage without thinking anything was out of place. Must be the California sunshine.


I also agree that this is a bad place to make a good laydown. I count 16-17 BB's in the pot when our hero has to call on the river. Even the chance that she thinks she has the best hand (QQ or KK) makes this a fairly straightforward call. I don't think he's got more than about a 10-15% chance of having the best hand, but that's enough.


Regards, Lee

I liked the raise on the turn for exactly the reasons you say. You know where the nuts are, she doesn't. You may have the best hand, you'll probably get a free showdown. And, it might help you save the last bet on the river.


If I were playing my A+ game, I *might* look at that bet on the river and think, "Sheesh, I told her on the turn I had her beat, now she's betting again. I guess these rockets are no good YET AGAIN!" and fold.


You said you were 99% sure you were beat. Well, then you should fold. When your estimate of your equity drops below 6% or so (in this situation), it's time to let go.


Also - you may get a free look here. She's a dealer. Dealers tend to be pretty easy-going (they have the awkward situation of playing poker against the people who pay them). The finesse here is to avoid showing what you're laying down. The script goes like this:


"I've got a big hand here, but I think you've got a bigger one."

[pause for effect, then muck]

"You got a flush?"


At this point, she'll likely show you hers [1].


You nod, "Yeah, I had aces."


This way, you've told the truth, but they don't *know* you've told the truth. In fact, they'll *never* believe you could lay down aces.


As I said, I'd have to be completely locked into The Zone to make this laydown/finesse play. Tommy does this sort of thing daily.


Regards, Lee


[1] Cards, that is.

Lee-


I don't think it's inconceivable for a 20-40 player to recognize the same reasons you gave for DeezNuts to raise the turn. Therefore, it's also not out of the question that he might be facing a desperation river bet from a worse hand. I still say an incorrect fold is far more of a disaster than an incorrect pay-off.


I'm also not as gung-ho about his turn raise... I understand the reasons for it and I'll often make this type of raise myself, but there's something about this board and the action that make me lean against it for this particular hand. He has the best two-pair and another heart gives him the nuts. In other words, if his hand is good, there just aren't a lot of river cards for him to worry about. By just calling, he is more apt to collect another bet on the river if his flush misses (either by calling a bet, or betting after being checked to). At the same time, he saves money when he's beat or becomes beat, while never putting himself in the difficult dimemna you describe of making such a big laydown.

I can't find any fault with the way you played this hand. Every street way played correctly.