20-40 at Taj: Monster Draw Collides With Scary Turn Card

[Jeffage]

20-40 at Taj. Loose game. I have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the big blind. Two EP and two LP players limp. SB folds. I raise it up and everyone calls. $210 pot. Flop is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet and it's folded to the last LP player who raises. I reraise and he is the only caller. The turn is the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Do you check or bet? My thoughts and results later.

Jeff

[Mikey]

Bet.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
20-40 at Taj. Loose game. I have A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the big blind. Two EP and two LP players limp. SB folds. I raise it up and everyone calls. $210 pot. Flop is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet and it's folded to the last LP player who raises. I reraise and he is the only caller. The turn is the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Do you check or bet? My thoughts and results later.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you necessarily think he has to have the 8? He could have an overpair or underpair and test you out. Heck, he could even be on a draw (spade, 34, 67). Your hand still has value, you still represent that overpair. Bet it out and see what he says. If he has that boat or the 8, he'll surely let you know, and you can play it correctly on the river.

Garland

[elysium]

hi jeff

it's an easy bet. you will call his turn raise with no problem, and you will check-call the river if he raises the turn, or if you don't improve, even if he checks down the turn or calls the turn. so you must bet to keep him from bluffing at the the river, for the free showdown on the river, and to maybe pick up the pot on the turn. betting will also come in handy those times you complete your nut flush and correctly betout on the river.

[RollaJ]

Bet or go for the c/r

[Jeffage]

Thanks for the replies. On the turn I bet and was promptly raised. I called. The river was the 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to double pair the board. I checked, he bet and I called. He was aggressive and I thought there was a slight chance he would try to move me off the hand with nothing. He turned over pocket 4's to beat me. Ouch. I don't think he would have folded even if I 3-bet the turn though. Anyone not pay off the river?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Mikey]

you aren't supposed to pay of the river. Usually players don't semi-bluff raise twice in a row, unless this guy is really ultra agressive.

[Jeffage]

You wouldn't call playing 44 like this ultra-aggressive? I think the way people play in these games, a call can't be that wrong. But I'm curious whether others agree with this or not.

Jeff

[Mikey]

well on the turn, its really not a bad raise if he knows you'll lay down an overpair since the top card on the board paired.

The 8 is a really good card for him since he has the position as well, but I would tend to still bet out into him because usually typical players can't read hands that well and they would tend to get passive here fearing the 8 forgeting that your raised preflop, but they will come over the top again if they do have trips or a full house.

Also by betting your hand can take some heat even if he has trip 8's and you may have those flush outs still working for you and you can also fold on the river if you don't improve.

Plus when I mean to ultra agressive I mean also taking into account his previous plays in other hands.

[SoBeDude]

On an 8-high board, I really like your opponent's line.

Since you raised out of the big blind, he's putting you on big cards. On the turn he's trying to represent the trip 8s, and also thinking his 4's are probably best.

When on the river another card that couldn't possible help you hits, he's going to be ahead most of the time. And when he thinks you'll pay him off with AK, his bet has great value.

Oh, and unlike most of these guys, I'm checking the turn and taking the free card when the top card on the board pairs.

And no way I call on the river with unimproved AK.

-Scott

[chio]

hi jeff

great post

advantages of betting turn:
a small pocket pair might fold, don't give a free card to a draw

advantages of checking and calling the turn:
save a bet against trip 8's and/or an aggressive play with a pocket pair

i think this is a great post because it's so close, it's equally possible for him to have a small pocket pair or a hand with an 8 in it (78s, 98s, T8s, J8s)

in the end i think i would bet here, you hate getting raised, but it's not like you dont have huge equity in the pot against trip 8's, even huger against a PP, and you can easily c/r river if you hit b/c he will never put you on flush

however, one thing's for sure, if you bet turn and are raised, check and fold the river if you don't improve - take advantage of info that you "paid" two bets on the turn for. think of your play so far, he MUST put you on a big PP and know you're not folding HU no matter what, if he is a super aggressive maniac and pulls a move on you with a draw, then so be it

[Garland]

Hi Jeff,

By the results I think I know what your opponent was thinking:

He raised on the end because everyone else folded and he thought you might have high cards, so he raises to test you out. Since you reraised, he has deduced you have an overpair or a big flush draw at least and not an overpair.

On the turn he decided to raise on any scare card. Certainly the 8 was a scare card because if he represents the top pair like he did on the flop, he may be able to push you off an overpair. He might also raise on a spade because you could very well be semi-bluffing a flush draw, although in this particular instance it would be a big mistake.

On the river, I wouldn't pay him off. I personally think he wasn't value betting so much as trying to make one last ditch effort to push you off your hand. I'm sure when you called he thought he was beat, but I wouldn't have called that river bet unless the A or K came down.

The important point is, if you were planning to call the last bet, you might as well bet it out and fold to a raise. In this case, I think 44 would be put to a tough decision, and I think there's a reasonable chance to get him to fold. There's too big a chance he has you beat even with random crap than to catch a bluff with A high.

Garland

[AJo Go All In]

Oh, and unlike most of these guys, I'm checking the turn and taking the free card when the top card on the board pairs.

taking what free card?