QQ hand for review

[AdamL]

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (10.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.50 BB, between Hero and MP2.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP2 (12.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP2 shows As Kh (two pair, kings and sevens).
Hero shows Qc Qd (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 12.50 BB. </font>

I feel that I made the right moves. If I were a better player or gave more credit to my opponent, I might have been able to fold when the K hit, but when you are called on the flop by a guy with two overcards it's hard to give him credit for much at all. :-)

[nothumb]

I wanted to tell you to bet the turn, then I wondered if you could fold to a check-raise. I wondered if I could too. I think it's not too bad. But

[ QUOTE ]
but when you are called on the flop by a guy with two overcards it's hard to give him credit for much at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be criminal not to call in his situation. It would be truly awful. There are many situations where you should call or raise with overcards on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were a better player or gave more credit to my opponent, I might have been able to fold when the K hit

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that if you were a better player you could fold when checked to on the turn? Or are you talking about the river? I think by checking the turn you might have induced a bluff and are forced to call one bet here.

The more I think about it, the more I think you need to bet the turn, fold to a check raise, and probably check the river down if checked to.

NT

[AdamL]

"Are you saying that if you were a better player you could fold when checked to on the turn? Or are you talking about the river? "

Turn if there was a bet, or river. Any time after the king hits. An ace would be a similar situation.

"I think by checking the turn you might have induced a bluff and are forced to call one bet here."

Good point.

"It would be criminal not to call in his situation. It would be truly awful. There are many situations where you should call or raise with overcards on the flop."

Can you elaborate on why it is correct? I just don't see it in this situation. I'm used to No Limit though so my thinking might be way off. I need some help working through the logic.

The preflop was three-bet. I think that means that MP2 can expect to be up against JJ-AA or another AK.

The only one of those hands he is drawing against is QQ, all the rest beat him very reliably. On top of that, there are those two 7's on the board. He bets the flop, get raised, and has another two callers in front of him. How can he really think he's got a chance here? Even I was feeling pretty insecure with my overpair.

He's drawing to a pair. The action suggests a pair is quite possibly already beat. The chances of hitting the pair aren't that great either.

Against QQ, they are about 27% from flop to river. Only about 12% to hit on the turn.

Against AJo, he's got only a 14% chance flop to river of winning the hand.

Against any 7, he has about 6%.

Is that really a criminal fold on the flop with a raise and two callers in front of his bet?

[Rico Suave]

Adam:

I would rather bet the turn (and most likely fold to a c/r) and check behind on the river than offer a free card on the turn and call a river bet.

--Rico

[AdamL]

That definitely would have been better than what I did. It certainly looks like he was going to the check-raise.

If I am merely called, do I bet again on the river or try to check it down?

[nothumb]

Adam,

He was checked to with AK so he bet and you raised. He is unlikely to have heard from a 7 on this flop (most players wait for the turn) and even though several players cold call the 2 bets (meaning one could have the 7, or not) he has to call here. This action does not mean he is beat in a low stakes limit game. He is likely to be drawing live and there is even a slim chance he is ahead.

No way he can fold. Depending on the turn action he might fold but he CANNOT lay down here.

NT

[AdamL]

So am I interpreting you correctly when I infer that this was a very game-specific call?

With a raise and two players cold-calling two-bets in front of him, he probably wouldn't think he was ahead or drawing live if this were not a low-limit game, correct?

This is something Ed Miller's book would probably be able to expand on. Calling two bets behind three players on a flop like this on nothing but a draw for tptk seems like a -EV play at most tables. Is this a specific adjustment that needs to be made for lower-stakes games?

What kinds of situations would induce you to fold AKo overcards on the flop in a low-stakes limit game?


Adam

[nothumb]

Adam,

I don't play much at the mid-limits or beyond. I can tell you that at the micro-limits and small-stakes this is an easy, easy call on the flop to complete the action. Remember, he's not calling two cold. He's betting out because he may have the best hand, getting raised by an aggressive player and called cold by typical or poor players (unless you have notes to the contrary). None of these is particularly troubling unless one of the poor players comes alive on the turn.

I would almost never fold AK for one bet in a typical low limit game on the flop. I would often raise, especially if I have position.

Search for some AK and AKo threads in micro and small stakes and you will get an idea of how this hand is usually played. I'm tired and not going into too much detail here. If any other posters think I'm wrong they can jump in.

NT

[AdamL]

nothumb,

Thanks for your help with this.