Another long vegas report

Let me preface this by saying that I'm feeling great right now. Seriously. I'm in a great mood right now. Maybe it's because I'm leading my NCAA bracket right now, maybe it's because my mom just sent me a St. Patrick's Day card with a poem entitled "Ode to Beer" on it. Maybe it's because I just got home from a friends wedding. Who knows. But I'm in a good mood. And that may be hard to believe after reading this post.


So, as I mentioned earlier, I headed out to Vegas this weekend. Well, that's not entirely true. I had Friday off of work (can I get a woo hoo?), so I decided to take Thursday off, so I could be in Vegas for the first full weekend of the NCAA tourny. Thought it would be fun.


So, I get home from work on Wednesday, grab some dinner, do some laundry, go to bed at 1:00 a.m. Get up at 3:00 a.m., and hit the road, Figured I'd beat traffic and get to vegas by the time the first games started. And I did... I arrived at about 8:00, pulled straight into the Bellagio, and meandered on back to the poker room. The place was dead.


Dead.


All the way, dead. One 15-30 game, headsup. One 30-60 game, 5 handed. One 20-40 omaha game, 4 handed. One 4-8 holdem game, 5 handed. Six handed, cuz I just grabbed a seat. Nothing too interesting.


I play some, gamble some, watch some BBall, and then go play some 8-16. Good game, most players a little weak tight. I win maybe $100 in an hour, then go grab lunch with my roommate, who was independently in Vegas, visiting his sister who goes to college in Pennsylvania, but is in Vegas on spring break. Yeah.


After lunch, my roommate and I gamble some...Let it Ride is more enjoyable when you get dealt King-King-King (I want to point something out here...I just wrote King-King-King instead of KKK, cuz I was afraid that KKK would appear slanderous. This means something later on), and the dealer turns up 6, 6. Cool.


Then, Todd shows up. Todd lives in Vegas, and is the reason I'm their this weekend...he was getting married on Saturday.


We play a little, then head over to the Mirage for the NLHE tourny.


Todd busts out when he makes his flush whilst drawing dead. Too bad we didn't have a last longer bet going.


I get shortstacked when I raise my JJ first in 2 off the button, then the cutoff reraises all in. He hasn't raised since he moved to my table. I muck, he shows me the ole' ace with an ace kicker, hand. Nice lay down, bad impact on chip stack.


Few hands later, I go all in, and three of us see the flop. 2 have QQ, one has 99. Guess who wins?


Okay, it wasn't really a bad beat...the QQ's chopped, and me with the 99 is out. Que sera sera. To the Bellagio.


Todd and I start playing 15-30. First hand to talk about.


I'm stuck maybe $100. No biggie. Even though I'm running horridly, I've always done well in Vegas, and I know I'll turn it around.


I get JJ in the BB, after two limpers (unknown...this is my first BB, yes I lost $100 on the first round, I don't really have a read on them...) L1 and L2 limp, a late position raiser raises, and the SB folds. I just call, thinking that a 3-bet won't drive out either limper, and I'm hoping to get a favorable flop.


I did.


Flop comes 3d 4d Jc. I have the Jd.


Check, Bet, Call, Raise

3-bet, Call, Fold, 4-bet

Cap, call, out, call.


Hopefully you could follow that.


Turn is a 5s. Bet, fold, call.


River is a 2h. Check, bet, I call.


Now, I'm expecting to see AA in my face.


I was wrong. I was shown AKs. He rivered the wheel, after putting in 5 bets on the flop with a J 3 4, no backdoor flushdraw flop. Crap.


I'm a little peeved, but at least I've spotted a sucker within the first half hour. matt Damon would be proud of me.


And then it happened. I started making my draws. A beloved feeling. In the next 3 hours, I made 4 flush draws. Not bad. Good.


Wait. All 4 said draws were second nut. Everytime, the nut flush was out there (to be honest, one of them was only a 1-card flush).


This is sorta interesting...I have KdQh in the BB. Three players limp, SB calls, 5 see flop.


Flop comes Jd Td 5s.


Checked to middle position player who bets. She bets draws occassionaly, but never seems to bluff.


All fold to me, so I just call with my open-ender, backdoor flush, two overcards.


Turn is 7d, putting the flush out there, and I have the Kd. Check, Bet, Call. If i don't have the Kd, I think that this is a very tough call. But, what the heck, I call with the Kd.


River is another diamond...2d. Check, bet, call.


She shows me A8d, I was drawing dead on the turn. Should I have mucked? thoughts?


So yeah, 4 second-nut flushes, and everytime i lost. It happens. I'm stuck. Players checks on table 15 (or whatever table).


And now I'm stuck. And I'm sick. It's about 2:00 a.m. now, another friend (Joseph) is in town for the wedding, so he, Todd, and I keep playing. I get QQ, lose to KT and Kx. It happens. I get KK in the SB, but I chop, and so the the BB. Drat.


UTG limps, Joseph in the SB calls, I raise with AA (red) in the BB. both call. Flop comes 9d 8d 8s. Joe bets, I raise, UTG calls 2, Joe 3-bets.


I've played with Joseph more than Packers have played with the Bears throughout time. he has an 8. I call his 3-bet because I have the backdoor diamond draw, and the 2-outer. Maybe not a mathematically correct call, but I call.


Turn is Qh. Bet, I fold, UTG calls. River is a T, Joseph bets, UTG mucks. Joe told me later he had T8. I believe him


I end up losing $800. Fortunately, tomorrow is another day. I go to bed at 3:00, 24 hours after I got up, 2 hours after I went to bed.


And man, am I sick. I'm coughing like a chainsmoker in a flour factory. I have the chills and I can't wait to sleep until August.


I get up at 11:00 when Joseph (who I'm staying with) has decided to pick my brain on the Maryland-Siena Line. My official thought was something like "I don't give a damn. I want to sleep".


Joe and I head over to the Bellagio. Todd is there, and he says that there is this great 30-60 game. So, I decide to sit in it. I played horribly.


I raise a UTG limper with QQ. BB calls, UTG calls. Flop comes J 8 4, rainbow. check, check, bet, call call.


Turn paired the 4. The BB checked in this big, dramatic way. You know, raises his hand high, drops it, and lightly checks the felt. It's as if he was saying "That card COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY helped me", clearly meaning that he has a 4.


I knew he did. I was hosed. I need a Q. But after UTG checked, I decided to bet. I guess my thought was "he couldn't have a 4, this is 30-60 game". Bad thoughts.


Even worse, I call his checkraise, and his river bet. Stupid. Plain and simple. When you have that certain of a read, why don't you go with it in the future, Josh? Good question. Very.


After missing on two successive open-ended straight flushes, I am shortstacked.


Then, maybe I may have played with Ray Zee. I don't know. I think I heard them say the seat was locked for Ray Zee. I was in the 2 seat, and they were referring to the 1 seat. Ray, if you're reading this, was that you? You remember the kid who was clearly overmatched and short stacked?


All fold to "ray" in mid/late position, and he raises. I 3-bet with 77. Heads up.


Flop comes Ah Qc 5c. Check, bet, call. Turn is 6s. Check, bet, call (but he acted like he wanted to checkraise). I had 4 chips left at this point. River is a 9d (or some other sufficient blank). check, check. He shows K6c, for a pair of sixes, and I win. Cool.


but it put a poisonous thought in my head. it said that when 'ray' raised in late position, he had rags. not always true, josh, not always true (I just went mike l. with the shift key).


ray raises, I threebet with AhTc. Flop comes all hearts, Jack high. Check, Bet, call. Turn is a black King. Check, Bet, raise, and I 3-bet with my ace high. I'm a pro. I can do this stuff. Wait, no, I'm not a pro. And never will be with such shenanigans. I 3-bet with my overcard, nut flush draw, and gutshot straight thinking that the checkraise was a pure attempt to knock me off of my possible-medium-pocket-pair.


River is a blank. check, check. ray shows KK. Woops.


Todd started to question my 3-bet preflop. I was thinking about the previous 77 hand. But I told Todd that it was justified. You know, the flop could have come 3333, or 4444, or AAT, or any other number of flops. in fact, I was dang near the favorite.


Except not.


Okay, so 30-60 ain't working out. How about nuding the decimal point, and going to play 4-8? Okay, so I do. But it's boring, cuz winning a $25 pot seems like a self-insulting maneuver. I need to lose that ego and pride. So I go play 8-16. Again, weak tight. I was playing with a guy named Adam. This is interesting. Adam and i work together in LA. We never knew each other played cards, until we ran into each other on Friday. Small World.


I win a few hundred playin 8-16, and I try to parlay it into a bigger win, so I play 15-30 that night.


After flopping a set of Q's and losing to a legit flush draw, I'm telling myself to keep my head on straight.


UTG limps, I limp with 77, black. And here, I got lucks. 2 more limp, and SB raises.


SB has raised 5 hands in a row. Two hands earlier, he raised UTG with 95o. No kidding. So, why don't you try to put him on a hand now.


Flop comes A 9 9, rainbow.


Checked around. Hmmm. Turn is 2d, putting two diamonds out there. Checked to the button who acts like he wants to bet, but just checks. I tell myself that he's on a diamond draw. If the 7d shows up on the river, I'll checkraise the sorry little sapsucker.


River, 7d. BEAUTIFUL. Time to put the play into action. Now, the SB bets out. Hmmm, did he flop a monster? Probly. I'll just call, and when the button raises, I'll just call the SB's 3-bet, or maybe I'll fold, or...whatthehell, lets just see what happens.


I call, and all, including the button fold. SB shows AA, and I lose, but only one bet.


The table starts talking about how they all would have lost more $$$ than me, and how I musta smelled a rat. I say "yep", not telling them about my (wrong) read of the button. Got away cheap. Awesome.


(Sooga, when on the phone with you, I lied about this hand because of my tilted nature) UTG limps, one more limps, I raise with QQ (my new least favorite hand. I went 0 for 1.3 million with QQ on this trip). Both blinds fold, 3-handed.


Flop comes J 4 2, two spades. Checked to me, I bet, Checkraise, call, I call. I just call here hoping to raise if a non-spade comes on the turn. Risky, I know, cuz i let 77, or any A or K get there for cheap. But such is life.


Turn is 8s. Bet, call, and i muck.


WHAT? I showed my cards to each of my neighbors (I was leaving the game very soon anyhoo, but i know it's not a wise practice), and they both look at my quizzically (my favorite word). I said "seat 4 (the second limper) has a flush". That was a lie. I wasn't worried about him, I was worried about the bettor. He wasn't afraid of the flush AT ALL, so I put him on a big hand...a set or a flush. He had 22, and won. I think I made a good laydown there.


I forgot about one other hand during this session. It was my first hand. I am posting in the cutoff, and get AKo. One raiser (no limpers) in front of me, and I just smooth called.


Stupid. I lost. Board came Q T 2; A; 6. SB had KJo. If I had 3-bet preflop, I may have lost him, and won the pot.


Why didn't I reraise before the flop? Simple. I didn't want to seem maniacal, even though I had a legit hand. This is what I was referring to with the KKK earlier. I get too worried about image. yeah, you should be conscious of it, but I'm way too conscious of it. If I'm playing about 9-18, I'm sure to constantly drop hints of when I played in the WSOP, just to I may give the image of a big-time player, so they don't know i'm playing on scared money. There was another situation where I was hyper-aware of my image, but it escapes me now.


So the losing streak continues. I'm still sick, coughing 12 times per second. Spontaneous nose bleeds. Fortunately, the projectile vomit has subsided. I'm back in LA. I'm leading me NCAA bracket (I picked a bunch of first round upsets correctly...Wyoming, Missouri, Creighton, NOT UNC Willmington, though, Kent St).


But I've started to seriously think about this whole poker thing. As you know, I am now giving up poker for a couple of weeks. I'll still be reading here, but I'm not totally sure I'll ever play again.


Friday, when Joseph woke me up, we watched the tail end of the Creighton-Florida Game. After Terrell Taylor made that final 3-pointer with 0.2 seconds left, he was ecstatic, as well he should be. And I got to thinking...poker will never make me as happy as that one shot made him. I could with "the big one". I could blow Ted Forrest away as the best hi-limit ring game player. And I wouldn't be happy.


See, money just doesn't matter to me. That's why I've questioned people like Mason for always talking about the bottom line. That's why I told the guy with the 89 that I had AKd on the Qd Jd Th flop. Cuz it's not about the money for me.


When the L.A. poker classic was ongoing, I would always walk through the high limit section and drool. Yeah, it'd be nice to have $20,000 or more on the table, that I could afford to lsoe. But I don't, and that's fine. But I really want to play in those games. not because of the money, but because I want to match wits with the biggest and best. That week, I saw Huck Seed playing 4-8 holdem. No kidding. I told the floor man to let me know if a seat opened in his game. I wanted to play with him. I didn't necessarily want to beat him (ala Damon putting a move on Chan), cuz I know that Huck Seed playing 4-8 is not in the same league as Chan playing 300-600, but I just wanted to play with him.


But even if I'm playing 300-600 with Juanda, Cunningham, Ivey, Whomever, I still wouldn't be that happy. Sure, I'd enjoy it, but I wouldn't be happy.


Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not looking down my nose at poker players for any reason...I am one, or at least i used to be.


Awww, hell. Who am I kidding? Nobody. I'll be back. And I still play my "A" game. The real problem here is that poker started to consume me. When I was winning, I couldn't wait to play again. When I was losing, I couldn't wait to play again, to snap the streak. I ate, drank, slept, thought poker.


That's the problem. I talk about poker not being able to make me happy. So? That's no big deal. Do it for enjoyment, maybe a little spending cash. It doesn't need to actualize my existence, right? Right. I just need to step back, and then step into it again. I just need to not step so far into it. It was too all consuming. I didn't allow myself chances to find other avenues of "happiness". that was the problem.


Moderation, Josh. Man, I'm a genius.


That, and this morning, before Todd's wedding, his grandmother passed away.


And poker doesn't seem to matter.


I need to keep it that way.


Josh

It sounds like you've got you're perspective back. Losing streaks happen. Don't let poker become you're life.

yeah, make room for sports betting..lol..gl

Gummy you are completely out of control. If you keep this up, you're going to develop a gambling problem, if you don't already have one. You're playing too much, too high, and too pumped. You're not in control of your game or yourself. Any why the heck are you betting on sports and playing Let It Ride?


Get yourself cleaned up and organized. Stop playing negative EV games. Stay at $15/30 or below, you have absolutely no business playing higher. Grind it out and play 4 hours max win or lose. When you make 10 grand, you can think about bigger games. Until then, you *are* the fish /images/smile.gif.


And you are right, happiness will never come from a poker game. Fun? Yes, but not happiness, which can only come from personal accomplishment and family relationships.


Pay attention to Phil Hellmuth who has been very open about the poker lifestyle with its ups and downs.


-Marc

Marc -


I appreciate the comments, though I'm a little bit curious where many of them come from.


For example, when you talk about negative EV games...You need to understand that I never ever ever ever never ever play these games with any sort of expectation to win...I play them the same as any Vegas Tourist does...for fun and entertainment. I don't have a burning desire to play these. I don't yearn to play them. But when I'm in vegas with friends, and they want to play, I will, A VERY LITTLE BIT. I'm in no way out of control with that.


The same with sports. I didn't reread my post, but I'm not sure I mentioned that I bet on sports at all. In fact, I did make two VERY SMALL (i.e. $20) bets. Three, technically, but one was for a coworker with money he gave me before I left. Not out of control.


And the 4 hour bit. Nonsense. It is patently ridiculous to try to set some sort of line in the sand which all should adhere to. I'm 23, and recently graduated college. When in college, I would ROUTINELY stay awake for 40 or more hours straight. ROUTINELY. I've always played long sessions, my longest being 30 hours.


I fully understand that not everybody can do this. I'm pretty good at walking away when my game turns bad (either how I'm playing or the lineup).


However, I agree with what you say...I am playing too much, I often am playing too high, though I'm not sure what playing too pumped means. But I am in control of my game and myself.


That's how I'm able to just stop, and walk away for a month.


Again, I appreciate the comments. Some hit the mark, but I feel that others missed by a mile. Please be careful about blanket assertions that could be WAY off mark.


Josh

Fine, go ahead and be a sucker occasionally in the casino. It won't kill you. I think it's a bad idea to ever voluntarily take the worst of it, just on principle. But that's just me.


As for the 4 hour advice, your on coke if you think you can play good poker for 30 hours. Or 20 hours. Or even 10 hours. If you play sessions that are typically in excess of 8 hours, you're a gambler not a player. That doesn't make you a bad person, just a sucker.


Look at any organized competitions, whether athletic or intellectual. They are decided in a few hours, usually less than four. Humans cannot perform anything at a very high level for tens of hours at a time. Being 23 is irrelevant. If you're playing with proper concentration and intensity, you should be tired in 4-6 hours.


Again, you can play 20 hours all you want. I'd be delighted to be at your table when you're playing hour eleven and I'm playing hour two.


And the fact that you are walking away for a month is not a testament to your self-control. It just reflects that fact that you're coming off a marathon losing poker trip. Everyone feels like quitting when they get hammered like you just did.


You better start being honest with yourself if you want to have a shot at being a winner in this game.

Marc -


Is it wrong to play 18 holes of golf? From a financial standpoint (if you aren't gambling or a pro), that's negative EV, right? Bowling, stamp collecting, car-restoring, surfing, going to the movies, whatever costs money, is negative EV. But they are forms of entertainment, and I don't scoff at people who shoot 18 holes on a lazy Sunday afternoon.


As for session lengths...


you are maybe right...maybe I'm not playing as well at hour 11 as at hour 2. But I still have an edge. Is it is big as it once was, likely not. I've also never played over 8 hours straight (except once) at 15-30 or higher. I think that even you would concede that lower stakes take less concentration, as you are playing cards a lot more, and people a lot less.


And being 23 is not irrelevant. It may not make all the difference in the world, but it does make a difference. I don't have any scientific evidence, but I'd surely bet that a fit 23 year old could outlast an overweight 40 year old at a poker table any day of the week (on balance).


Lastly, while I'll agree that most athletic endeavours are settled in 3-4 hours (depending on how many commercial advertising spots are available /images/smile.gif ), intellectual are usually not. SAT, LSAT, GMAT tests are frequenly all day, or at least 6+ hours. Heck, even traffic school is 8 hours long. A work day is 8 hours long. Why? Because people can do something for 8 hours at a time. 8 hours is probably on the high end of my usual session, and I'll concede that playing 20 hours means I'm not playing my "a" game for all 20 hours. Finally, look at poker tournaments. They last from 8 hours to 5 days. Is there a more relevant example? I can't think of one.


I don't want you to think I'm arguing with you. I do greatly appreciate your feedback, even though you take liveral copious pot-shots at my makeup with words like "sucker". I know, as I said in my post, I have ego problems. I need to not play above my head, as you said. I need to reevalute where I stand on the poker ladder.


Thanks for help pointing this out.


Josh

'Is there a more relevant example?'


chess matches/tournaments ; can be pretty long and require a lot more concentration.


brd

I felt like comparing poker to poker, not comparing poker to chess.

oh, i just meant that competitive chess requires tremendous concentration over an extended period of time, sometimes over 8 hours, where if you slip up its over. in poker you can take a break, and even if you make an (isolated) mistake, its not the end of the world.


brad

30 hours? anything over 10 hours is suicidal, IMO. You can make comparisons to a lot of things like the MCAT or LSAT but these are tests you take once(maybe twice) in your life after intensive studying and you are prepared for the length. I'm somewhat recently out of college and pulled all-nighters playing cards with my buddies, but I don't think I could do it with players that I can't stand(always at least a few at the table).


DN

I played 30 hours once, and 20 hours fewer than 10 times...heck, fewer than 5 times.


like I said, my average session was probly in the 8 hour range, with 90% of sessions less than 10 hours. Maybe 95% of sessions less than 10 hours.


Part of the reason I like long sessions is because when its 5:00 a.m., and I'm at hour 10, others are also at hour ten. Now, maybe my game has slipped a little, but others have slipped more. They often become easier to read. When it gets that late, many games go through a period of super-tightness, where everybody is stuck, and they just want to get it back. It is not difficult to feast on those times.


But like I said, nearly every session of mine is what most would call "normal", or just on the high end of normal by an hour or two.


Josh

I'd like to congratulate you on taking the high road with this response, there were a lot of not so subtle barbs said and this could have set a lesser poster off. Personally, I'm a fan of shorter sessions but I'm not about to tell someone they can't beat the sheep for 9 hours straight. Any other advice I could offer about sliding down the limits you already know

It's good to see that this thread didn't turn into some all-out war, but I think the reason that Gummy posted was to get some thoughts off his chest but mostly to get some uncensored feedback, which is what this forum is great for. Sometimes you need a good, hard kick in the ass to really reflect on your game, as the #1 enemy in all of gambling is DENIAL. One time I lost a couple of racks and lied to myself that I was getting trash cards. I was talking to my friend, who said, "you played bad, and you deserved to lose." That was the best thing he could have said to me.


One thing escapes me, though. Your(Gummy) posts seem to be top notch in that you put players on hands quickly, seem to know why you are making a certain play, and can recall all the specifics of a hand(which is more than I can say for myself at times). I'm at a loss to understand how you can run so bad for so long, even with all this knowledge. I mean, the LA players are just soooo bad. But hey, what do I know, I've only been playing for a year. Maybe I'm just around the corner from running that bad, too(knock on wood).


DN

Thanks for the kind words....as to why it seems that i shouldn't be running bad but am....I have a number of possible reasons.


1.) I talk a better game than I play. I'm starting to get discipline problems. I play hands I know I shouldn't. I can give advice here, but won't follow it myself at the table. I really need to work on this.


2.) I am getting a very cold run of cards. And like I said in my report, I played poorly at the 30-60 game. But I'm not kidding, Every draw is being made against me, and I'm not making one. I flopped two sets this weekend, jacks on a J34 board which I lost to AK, and Queens on a Q84 board I lost to KJs. Yes, cards can run bad for a long time. It's been since October for me, with only a couple small isolated wins in that stretch.


3.) As far as hand reading....I'm starting to actually go with my reads now. For too long, I'd have a read, but then still bet, knowing that the checkraise is coming. Or, I'd raise the turn with trash when I know my opponent is on a flush draw, but I won't be the river, and I'll get highcarded. Simple mistakes....


And yeah, I can recall hands like nobody's business. I'm thinking about maybe playing stud when I get back, just so I can use my memory to my advantage more. I have a bit of a photographic memory (meaning, I don't have one, but I'm damn close), so I can remember a ton of detail about a ton of hands. It's just luck...I was born with it, I can't reccommend how others could get it.


Thanks for the feedback.


Josh

Thanks for the post...


As far as being kind....it never ceases to amaze me when people post on here and want honest feedback, get it, then get mad. It's like when your girlfriend/wife asks you if you think that some incredibly gorgeous woman is good looking. When you ask a question you don't want to hear an answer to, expect to hear an answer you don't like.


Now, I'll be honest. The comments about session length bother me....I'll take myself at a table of my regular opponents at the end of a 15 hour session (which, I must stress, I rarely do), and I'll still come out a winner. My edge will be decreased, so it is not the wisest thing to do, but I'll still have an edge. Look, 9-18 at the commerce has very little poker involved...you are playing cards. You are waiting to have your opponent drawing to 3 outs. YOu are waiting to be playing AQ against KQ, AJ against JT, KK against TT. Sure, it helps to be able to tell what opponents are capable of pushing draws, but they don't vary their play all that much, so it's really just sit back and wait for the mathematical edge. Simple. Not tiring. And I can play with an edge for more than 8 hours.


But I (probably) CANNOT do so at a 20-40 table. Its nice to have people point this out. I am honestly happy that Marc responded like he did...not a lot of people would do that.


I'm a big boy. I can take it. And thanks for your post.


Josh