Threw away a big one

8-16 HE. I've been at the table for a half hour and am up over $400 due to a couple of great hands. I'm on the button with KQ of spades. UTG raises, a MP player calls, Cutoff three-bets, I re-raise, one of the blinds calls, UTG and MP now call, and cut-off caps it. Everyone still in the hand calls. Flop is 5 handed.


Flop is an ace and two tens, triple-suited. Checked to the Cutoff, who bets. I muck. One other players mucks (I can't remember who) and everyone else calls!


Turn is a king, river is a 4. On both streets the Cutoff bet and got 2 callers.


Everyone flips their cards, and Cutoff's pocket 9's beat the pocket 8's and pockets pocket 7's of his opponents.


Should I have raised the flop? I had been on a good run, and was trying to avoid my habit of following great runs by throwing "house-money" after second best hands. Was my fold good or just scared play?

With 22 small bets out there, it's worth it to call unless you're convinced that the cutoff has a full house. You're getting 22-1 on inside straight, almost a 2-1 overlay. Hell, I'd even consider raising, esp. with everyone else checking.


Had the pot been smaller, your laydown is a nobrainer.


tim

i would have saved five small bets by mucking preflop. i would not call 3 bets cold let alone volunteer the fourth knowing it is likely to be capped as well. that wasn't house money you squandered, that was, and i do mean WAS your money...KQs can be a very playable hand but it was an easy muck in your spot preflop...ok so you decide to gamble (why) and took the flop, when all check to the cutoff who bets you are now in the worst possible position to the raiser... right smack in the middle, i don't see how you can call here...the good news? your opponents aren't too good, tighten up and take their money..

best wishes

IMO, you had no business getting involved pre-flop, much less four-betting it.


Your fold on the flop was reasonable, I think; even though the pot odds are good, hitting

a king or queen on board would, most likely,give

someone a straight; in some circumstances you may already be drawing dead(v A-A or T-T)or need a running pair of kings or queens.


Your money, once in hand, is yours and no-one

else's.


K-Q suited is a marginal hand in the more aggressive games;I've learnt, through sometimes

bitter experience, that it's part of the family

of hands that's too easy to come in second-best, along with A-J,K-T, etc.


perfidious

Hillbilly and perfidious are prime examples of bad players. Not the kind of bad players who call too much but the kind who fold to much. I love a couple of guys like this in my game, the kind of people who think they are good players when in fact they are TIGHT players, there is a big difference. Folding K,Qs on the button in a loose 8-16 game is moronic. You're play here was fine, I would have called the one bet on the flop, but it would have made no difference because I would have folded on the turn.

doug, against "normal" opponents, i stand by my preflop advice. now, arman never said that all his opponents were maniacs, so, if you make the preflop call not fearing you are totally dominated by AA, KK, or AK, and then call a bet on the flop with nothing, then turn a king, and you FOLD?...best wishes

I'll keep what you said in mind for the next time I want a 'great' player in my game.


There was nothing in Arman's post to indicate

any sort of maniacal tendencies of the part of his opponents; that being said, I stand by what I posted, and look forward to watching you throw away three to five bets pre-flop, hand after hand, in a game sometime.


Now, can we get on with some intelligent, reasonable debate over a hand, rather than having to face someone hurling invective?

did you have the backdoor flush draw to go with your straight draw on the flop? Haven't done any counting yet but that might make pot odds worth seeing the turn. Even without the flush you have 26 to 1 to see the turn, well worth you're 12-1 chance of hitting the magic J so yes, you should've called that bet(depending on # of callers/raisers you might even have odds to call on the turn). If someone has AA and already has the house then I guess you'll be paying them off fairly hard but you can't fall into the trap of putting everyone on the best possible hand.

I want to apologize to hillbilly and perfidious, I was out of line calling you bad players. It however is my contention that good poker players make alot more preflop calls because of there ability to read their opponents and therefore use there skill and experience besides their ability to do math. I may of been wrong in assuming that an 8-16 game means that there are mostly bad or loose players. The problem with these forums to discuss poker is that we don't have nearly enough info to make informed decisions. It has been my experience that 8-16 holdem is generally a pretty loose game with lots of action and while I might not have raised with the K,Qs on the button I would never fold it with 5 players in the pot. Unless I was in a game so rocked up that I shouldn't be in it anyway.