30-60 KK hand

i have KhKd in the sb. one loose mp player limps, folded to me and i raise, the bb folds and mp calls.


the flop is QsTc4c. i bet, she raises, i 3 bet, she 4 bets, i call.


the turn is a 6h. i check and she checks.


the river is a 2c. i check, she bets. should i call?


comments?

Could be J9 or KJ draw, though I guess there is a better chance she as the flush. I would call.


D.

I would probaly call the river.(although I am almost certain to be throwing away money here.) The reason for my call would be pure information. I want to see if she really pushes a draw that hard. If the clubs got there..ok..fine, but I will have a good idea where she is at for the future. In all honesty what could she have on the flop to 4 bet that you can beat?..If she is loose as you say Q-10 is not to far a stretch, but here check on the turn makes me suspicious of clubs, so I go check-call river. My guess is she turned over nut clubs, with a redraw.

Getting 7.5/1, I'd call.

Seems to me you almost have to call. The pot odds are too great to assume she has clubs. If I was aware you made a laydown of KK here I'd be making alot of aggressive plays against you in the future.


Claude

Hey Mike, the next time this happens let me know, I'll let you borrow the 60 bucks to cal if that's the problem.


Vince

you all seem to think my call was easy on the river. it was i guess: just put $60 in the pot and then complain when she shows you what she is 95% likely to have: a club flush. she had K8c.


no im not being results oriented, i genuinely think i shouldve folded here. nobody at this table wouldve been observant enough to see i was making a good laydown: i wouldve never shown my cards or somehow tipped my hand. i think this was a big waste of money and laydowns in this spot are what seperate good winning players from great ones. maybe im way off base though?


im pretty disgusted with the way i played this.

i shouldve made it 5 bets on the flop and bet the turn. she couldve easily had QT but she probably wouldve just called the 3rd bet on the flop and raised the turn if she held that. but the river was the biggest mistake of all.

i think this was a big waste of money and laydowns in this spot are what seperate good winning players from great ones. maybe im way off base though?


I think it's a call heads-up. Multi-way, I think the laydown is better.


A big waste of money? It only cost one bet.

Unless you have a great read on this player and you KNOW that she wont bet in this spot unless she has you beat, then I also think a crying call is in order, but I understand how difficult it is to make this type of a laydown. How many times do you think to yourself, "I shouldn't call the river, but there is that small chance that I have the best hand. With pots like this, you only need to be right 1 outta 7 times to make it profitable. I can muck this only against players that I am close to 95% sure wont bet in this spot with a naked queen(usually guys I have played with a time or two before). But of course, if you had THAT great of a read on this player, you probably would have 5 bet the flop and bet out again on the turn. But even this play is a tough call because she definitely could have played QT or even a flopped set of fours or maybe tens like this on the flop. But at least you could get away from it if she raises you on the turn(although a flush semi-bluff by her presents more problems). Just my thoughts.


DN

Your call only has to win the pot 12% of the time to show a profit.

Is there not at least a 12% chance that she has KJ or J9?


It seems like these calls are "loser" calls because of the great number of times that you end up coming second best. But you have to keep in mind that you don't have to be right very often.


If calling is a loser play, folding is more of a loser play.

Making it 5 bets on the flop would not be wise. She played her draw hard and earned her "free" card...hehe. If she had showed you TT when the smoke cleared, you (and all of us) would be saying "what were you thinking when you made it 5 bets?"


Once she makes it 4 bets, I think you have to just call and probably check the turn (although an argument can be made to bet once a balnk hits).

Mike,


Puhlease. How long have you been playing 30-60? Answer the question yourself. How many times have you seen someone bet the river when a third suited card comes and not have a flush? Case closed.


Vince

Mike -


Remember that cards that scare you scare your opponents as well. She could have QJ or KQ (not to mention KJ or J9), and she's checking behind because of the scare card, planning on only calling one bet on the river.


Scare cards scare all, so call.


Josh