Flop and Turn Decisions -- Call or Raise?

[colgin]

Fairly loose passive table, but my opponents here are not total calling stations.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Colgin is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Colgin calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks,

Flop: (5.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Colgin calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Colgin . . .

Comments on all streets appreciated.

[Joe Tall]

After 2 limpers here, if you are likely to gain position by raising, I would w/QTs.

Call the turn hoping to collect overcalls on what is a likely draw-heavy board. If they do drop on the turn, you can stick the river raise versus 2 or less opponents.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[colgin]

Thanks for the response Joe.

I never considered raising pre-flop from this early a position but perhaps should have. I would have estimated that I had less than a 50% chance of getting the button with a raise here.

Any thoughts on raising this flop. As soon as I called, I "heard" Clarkmeister's voice (not that I have ever actually heard him speak having not met him) in my head screaming at me to RAISE.

I obviously considered just calling the turn and hoping for overcalls with the intention of raising the river. Instead, I ended up raising the turn, hoping that players on a draw would call two here, but might fold for one, not to mention two, on the river if they did not make their hand.

[MarkD]

I would play pre-flop the same as you but would raise the flop to clean up any overard outs I may have as well as gain a potential free card. Also, I wouldn't care if anyone called the raise as I would be getting value on it with more than 2 calls.

Having played it the same as you, on the turn I would just smooth call to get a bunch of overcallers. You aren't going to fold an ace or a king or trump anyways and you might get a bunch of people to call drawing dead.

[bdk3clash]

Aren't there a lot of hands out there that will call 2 cold on the turn anyway? Like the K and A of /images/graemlins/club.gif? Wouldn't we rather they fold the turn if they're so inclined?

I guess a lot of this also depends on if we think our opponents tend to fold straight draws on a 3-flush board for 2 bets.

Generally, I tend to let my opponents make as costly a mistake as possible (like calling 2 cold here with a 7 while drawing dead), but I'm interested to hear the logic behind collecting overcalls on the turn

I'm still deciding how I'd play the turn--my gut says to raise, but Joe Tall (as usual) makes a good point.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't there a lot of hands out there that will call 2 cold on the turn anyway? Like the K and A of /images/graemlins/club.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thought but I also realized I might be knocking out hands that were drawing dead that would have called just one bet here.

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't we rather they fold the turn if they're so inclined?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think either a singleton A /images/graemlins/club.gif or K /images/graemlins/club.gif is going to fold here regardless. If those hands are present they will either draw out on me or not. However, I am a big favorite over them now so I want to get more money in the pot when I am ahead.

In retrospect, I realize that it is much more likely that I am up against hands that are drawing dead than are drawing live (such as A or K /images/graemlins/club.gif or a set) and should be more inclined to keep in hands on the turn that might fold to a raise, particularly since the drawing live hands are not going anywhere anyway. Against total calling stations I think a riase is clearly correct. But as I pointed out these were not total calling stations. I expected to lose one or more people behind me if I raised. I think this is close but in retrospect think just calling would have been better.

[Joe Tall]

The problem is the opponent on your immediate right is leading. A flop call then turn raise is likely do drive off some hands that are drawing dead facing the field w/2bets. Also, you may get raised/check-raised to which you can three-bet.

I guess there is a line to draw to the number of opponents to act/type/board that I'd call/raise here, I wish I had time to break it down. This situation, I am calling.

You call and get say 2 other callers and if a great card like 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif comes off you could have a bonanza on your hands.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[colgin]

Turn: I raised, Button called two cold and everyone else(including UTG+2)folded.

River: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I bet and Button calls. Button has pocket 7s for the rivered straight and MHIG.

Thanks for your responses.

Colgin