Played Strangely #1

[Ulysses]

Button has been losing a lot and is moving from aggro to hyper-tilt.

I don't think I've ever played a hand quite like this.

What do you think?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, BB folds, CO caps, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, CO raises, Button 3-bets, Hero folds, CO calls.

[Schneids]

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What do you think?

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I think you need to continue your dabbling in 15/30 fulls.

I also think this hand is screwy, but I'll try my best to comment...

1. Why no cap preflop? Hoping for checkability to button and being able to make CO call two bets cold on a later street? Is CO smart enough to recognize button's tilt and then able to discern an isolation attempt by you?

2. Basically, your hand, even with the flop check-3-bet is drastically under-represented and CO really has no reason to assume you are anything stronger than AJsooted or KJsooted, which becomes further 'confirmed' by you calling button's turn raise.

3. I would hate to see CO show QQ and drag the pot. Would 3-betting the turn be better strategically in finding out how serious CO is about his hand...ie would CO raise you on the river expecting button to 3-bet, and would 3-betting the turn prevent something like this from occuring...?

4. This is a screwy hand but I assume it's 50-50 you're good against CO (I expect CO has exactly AA or QQ...). I believe if CO has JJ or TT you'd have seen a raise on the turn, be it a direct raise after you bet the turn, or as a call-reraise. Doesn't the pot size warrant you calling since button is tilting and his action is rather inconsequential?

EDIT: or KK for CO. For the record, that's possible too. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[stripsqueez]

i dont like folding on the river much

the button raised every time it was his go and he could - he reeks of overpair to me

the cutoff's action on the turn and river are strange - why wouldnt he raise the turn at some point and then raise the river when a blank comes ?

something like 12/1 for a river call - i can place them with hands that wont shock me that i beat

if you choose not to cap pre-flop then i think check/raising the flop is ok - i dont think you played it all that strangely until the failure to 3 bet the turn/bet out on the river combo ???

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Ulysses]

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i dont like folding on the river much

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I'm not sure I do either.

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the cutoff's action on the turn and river are strange - why wouldnt he raise the turn at some point and then raise the river when a blank comes ?

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I found that quite mysterious myself.

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something like 12/1 for a river call - i can place them with hands that wont shock me that i beat

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It's almost 10:1 if CO just calls. I think it's often going to end up getting capped given the CO's line, so that will make it just over 7:1. Still, quite possibly enough to call here.

[Ulysses]

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I think you need to continue your dabbling in 15/30 fulls.

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They're just so slooooooooooooooooooow.

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1. Why no cap preflop? Hoping for checkability to button and being able to make CO call two bets cold on a later street? Is CO smart enough to recognize button's tilt and then able to discern an isolation attempt by you?

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OK. CO is going to give little respect to button's 3-bet here. So it's probably going to be capped anyway if he has anything decent. I think he'll put me on simply "a playable hand" when I call the button's 3-bet. This, IMO, gives me a little bit more flexibility post-flop to either protect or maximize my hand.

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2. Basically, your hand, even with the flop check-3-bet is drastically under-represented

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I kind of agree, but not totally. I did just stay in for a cap pre-flop and now I check-3-bet.

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and CO really has no reason to assume you are anything stronger than AJsooted or KJsooted, which becomes further 'confirmed' by you calling button's turn raise.

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Yes, this I agree. Now he shouldn't put me on anything more than AJ.

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3. I would hate to see CO show QQ and drag the pot. Would 3-betting the turn be better strategically in finding out how serious CO is about his hand...ie would CO raise you on the river expecting button to 3-bet, and would 3-betting the turn prevent something like this from occuring...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think either check-raising the turn or bet/3-betting were probably better options.

[ QUOTE ]
4. This is a screwy hand but I assume it's 50-50 you're good against CO (I expect CO has exactly AA or QQ...). I believe if CO has JJ or TT you'd have seen a raise on the turn, be it a direct raise after you bet the turn, or as a call-reraise. Doesn't the pot size warrant you calling since button is tilting and his action is rather inconsequential?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet the river thinking that if I check, CO can put me on a missed draw and bet just about anything, followed by a likely raise by button if he had anything (he was v. aggro at the moment, but not an idiot). I'd prefer not being stuck in the middle of something like that if I can help it. I figured that betting out again would likely result in the same action as the turn but also quite possibly a CO call and button fold if he missed his draw or AK.

[1800GAMBLER]

Preflop is fine, you can almost be certain it's getting capped.

Flop: First decision bet out or check, i'd bet out since then i think it's more likely we cap. *shrug* it's nothing big.

Turn: I'm only worrying about CO and he just called, i 3 bet here. There's still millions of hands you are leading against here.

River: If i didn't 3 bet the turn i would bet out, i've saw LAGs just cool off on the river and it would annoy the hell out of me to miss that value. When it comes back to me i'd call.

Their hands: CO AJ for the '[censored] i should just call i'm beat here, *river blank comes* man i'm not convinced.' Button: I hate to give a LAG a hand, but i think we have to.

[Bad Beat Coming]

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the button raised every time it was his go and he could - he reeks of overpair to me

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I put the button on either pocket jacks or pocket 10s, for a flopped set, and pushing it to make the spades draw pay. Which, to me at least, explains his preflop play as well.

[Ulysses]

This hand was really screwy. I wrote some of my thoughts in my response to Schneids.

Anyway, as I posted to Schneids, I think a different turn play is better.

On the river, I felt like a bet was right and my best chance to get 2 to 4 bets w/ what I thought was likely the best hand.

When CO raised, I was quite surprised. I felt that he wouldn't do that without a better hand than mine. And when Button 3-bet (button was starting to tilt, but still was no idiot), I thought Button might actually have a real hand. The combo of one of them having me beat and the chance of it getting capped made me feel like I could fold.

Here's what I messed up on, though. The way I played the turn, these guys should probably put me on something like top pair. So, QQ/KK or even AJ could raise me. Frankly, I got really confused by CO's turn call/river raise line. After thinking about it a while, I think the chances he has a set are quite slim without a turn 3-bet (since he knows it probably gets capped if he does that). On the other hand, he can't expect me to fold and knows it might get capped on the river, so he must think his hand is best, right?

Anyway, I'm rambling, but that's the key. CO thinks his hand is best. But QQ/KK/AA and even AJs are all hands that could fit into that category.

As it turned out, Button had QQ and CO had AA.

I thought this hand was interesting because it's pretty common to make bad calls in this game, but not that often do most of us make bad folds.