I'm taking a sabbatical

I've been reading the reports about the Mason-Abdul incident(s). Needless to say, I'm very sad that two of the most informative posters here can't get along.


But as I view it (i.e. IMHO), Abdul's actions did not justify booting him from 2+2. As a thought exercise, suppose his comments on rgp had been about Mike Caro instead? Would the response have been the same?


So I'm going to take a sabbatical from 2+2. It will cost me, in enjoyment and knowledge. But I'm uncomfortable with what just happened, and I don't feel good, at the moment, about participating here.


Times change, people change. I might be back at some point.


Until such time, I wish you all well.


Regards, Lee

We'll miss you Lee, but be aware that Abdul made his comments *here*, and not on RGP. I think that makes all the difference.


I also think that Mason's condition for reinstatement is not an unreasonable one. He isn't even asking for a retraction or apology, simply that Abdul post poker only content.


That said, I understand your position.


Hope to see you posting again soon!

No, things almost certainly won't change...the last 5+ years have been the same petty sniping and a small clique who read and comment on each others posts and pretty much ignore everyone else.


We all have seen posts asking for help that go unanswered by any of the regular forum participants. And certain skins among the forum operators are condom-thin.


Like EazyE said "...got to follow your sargent's direction, or get yourself pumped by a Smith and Wesson..."


A9

that Lee Jones understands that Abdul was barred for posting here that Dianne from Green Bay might be in physical danger from Mason. No other reason. If he realized this, and still thinks that was not good justification (given he'd been warned before), to bar him that is Lee's perogative.

the last 5+ years have been the same petty sniping and a small clique who read and comment on each others posts and pretty much ignore everyone else


I don't know about the last five years, but for the last six weeks I can say the above comment is very unfair.


My first post here received some 15 or 20 reponses, my second only one or two. A few of my thread starters have stirred interest, others have been ignored.


It's about content Mr. Suited. Those posts containing the best content/most interesting scenarios or questions will get both eyeballs and responses. And we all quickly learn which posters will either entertain, stimulate or teach us the best.


I too have seen questions from unknown (to me) posters go unanswered. I'll usually open them up for a look. The problem often is that they haven't supplied sufficient information to adequately attempt an answer. Either that or the question is just so basic it's hard to know how to answer without appearing to be rude.


A mistake I've noticed some new people make is posting a question immediately after, for example, an Abdul or Mason or Brier post. You might as well just ask the webmaster here to delete the sonofagun when that happens. Best of luck to you. LTL

A9suited,


If this is at times true it is only human nature. But it is only true at times and many long time posters respond to posts from others old and new alike.


Regards,


Rick

"A mistake I've noticed some new people make is posting a question immediately after, for example, an Abdul or Mason or Brier post. You might as well just ask the webmaster here to delete the sonofagun when that happens. Best of luck to you. LTL"


Good tip!


Regards,


Rick

You'll be missed Mr. Jones. From my limited time here I've enjoyed your input.


As a thought exercise, suppose his comments on rgp had been about Mike Caro instead? Would the response have been the same?


The trouble with that exercise is Mr. Jalib posted his comments here, in the man's own house, not on rpg. Who knows what the result would've been if he HAD posted them on rpg instead of here? Maybe the same, maybe not.


For what it's worth I'd be even more compelled to give him the boot if he had posted the same thing about me elsewhere. But that's just me, an unforgiving old varmint who doesn't understand why things can't be worked out or slugged out face to face.


Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. LTL

If everyone got barred for, now and then, saying some stupid stuff a few times,

these Forums would soon run out of posters.

I have found this site to be outstanding. As a low stakes, recreational player I've gotten lots of comments, answers and advice from better players. I think deleting the obscene and the disingenuous posts is important to maintaining the community, and I think Mason and David and Ray deserve a lot of latitude -- earned by the quality of this site. But it does sound like in this case it's more about two guys that don't like each other.

that's way beyond "saying stupid stuff"

That would be the late rapper, I assume... cause I don't remember typing that ever... (what song is it from?)

No question in my mind that, if the comments were made about, for example, Mike Caro, even if made here (not RGP), no expulsion would have been forthcoming. Many posters on 2+2 post racist, insulting, or profane comments, but still post; apparently because those comments are aimed in a direction other than that of the host.


Those of us who remain here will be poorer for the absence of Abdul and especially for the absence of Lee Jones, whose insights on poker and on more important things rank right at the top of the list, my list anyway.

"Many posters on 2+2 post racist, insulting, or profane comments, but still post; apparently because those comments are aimed in a direction other than that of the host."


This is not accurate at all. Posts like this are deleted when we see them, and where possible, we ask the poster to stop doing it. And, if the poster continues to put up improper posts in the manner that you describe, we will take appropriate action.

How about, to take one example, elROY, who has been insulting, racist and profane for a long time on these forums yet still posts regularly?


Also, almost any time Chris Alger posts, he is insulted and derided, frequently being called anti-semitic. The following was posted May 29 and is still on the forum (Other Topics): "Alger is in favor of homicide bombers. He believes that by murdering Jews that one goes to Paradise."


So when these types of things remain, yet Abdul is banished because you were the target of his barb, it leads to the impression that it is the target of the post, not the content, that leads to the action.

Nobody said,


"Hi, I am credible, well-known commentator, I met Chris Alger the other day, and I tell you with no sarcasm or bite in my voice that he had explosives attached to his body with the intention of killing people."


I know you can tell the difference. Abdul is a great poker guru, but he is just super thin-skinned, and there is nothing that anybody can do to accommodate that.


So far as my own policy, I find I am more inclined to speak frankly to someone's face, than to speak that way about people outside of the forum behind their backs. Other people insult all day, just not each other. Which makes sense I guess, because it preserves forum traffic.


So far as me being profane, please give me an example, and I will try to be more careful in the future.


So far as my being racist, I guess it is quite possible, seeing as I am not 100% sure I even understand what the word means.


So far as my being insulting, get your head out of your ass.


eLROY

Andy:


You just don't have this right. There was a person who posted under the name Ray Springfield who was consantly attacking Chris Alger. He is no longer posting here. After enough warnings, and some deletions, we took appropriate action. (I also received several threatening emails from him after he was blocked from the site.)


Nasty posts sometimes get left up for several reason. They are:


1. We don't see them -- some days there are over 500 new posts on these forums.


2. By the time I see them there is already much response to them, and some of this response is clearly worthwhile. So not wanting to damage the thread, we leave it up.


3. The post is left up so that the IP address can be traced and perhaps blocked from future postings. This is done by our web site administrator who isn't always immediately available when I try to contact him.


But one thing is for sure. If we ask/tell/warn someone on many occasions to stop putting up insults and after a lengthy period of time they continue to do so, we have no other choice but to act appropriately. This is the way it should be no matter how terrific some of their other posts might be. I'm sure you would do the same.


Futhermore, because we make this effort, these forums stay focused on the exchange of valuable information, (and the quality of the information that appears here is just terrific). I strongly believe that's one of the main reasons we grew from one small forum in 1996 to 19 forums today. Don't you agree?


Best wishes,

Mason

"So far as me being profane, please give me an example, and I will try to be more careful in the future."


There were several posts by an eLROY impersonator. The name was spelt the same but the capitilization was different. I deleted three of these one day and they were full of four letter words. At first, I too thought it was our dearly beloved eLROY and just assumed that his aces had been cracked one time too often. But the second time they appeared I realized it was an imposter.


Andy, I suspect that you also saw these posts and perhaps made the same mistake that I initially made.


Best wishes,

Mason

Mason,


Please solve this problem. I love the content, but the quality of this message board is AWFUL. Require lgins and make it FASTER!!!! If you look at the message board at Webmaster World ... http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/ , you will see a QUALITY board !!! I am not referring to the content, just the actual message board. C'mon Mase, your books are selling...put a little in to the website!!!

not sure if you can start a sub thread in those types of message boards.



inital post A, response B, response C,



and now post D is responding to C,



but you want to respond to post B.



on that type of board would it end up as ABCDE? ie, totally sequentially? instead of

<PRE>

A - B - E

- C - D





brad

I actually find this board very convenient. I have a very fast connection though.

from a game at the Belligio, standing back from the game, when the public figure, Bob Stupak walked past. Looking real sharp in a fine black shirt. Never wanting an opprotunity to walk off, I tapped him on the shoulder and challenged him to a heads up game of limit hold'em. We agree on $100/200. He's thinking thousands, I am thinking bucks. Get him to the table, I figure.


While studying our finger nails, waiting for the dealer to get the cards straight, I have a panic anxiety attack. A lot of peer pressure had been applied recently. I leaned forward and asked, 'Do you chop?'. He asked if I meant a pork chop, a karate chop. So I began to explain that chopping is when you get heads up in the blinds and decide not to play.


"Well, maybe.", he says. "Do you soft play?"


"What's that?", I ask.


"That's when we get past the blinds we take it real easy on one another"

But then she is a girl and, as they say, "AOL is for bitches."


So far as my being insulting, get your head out of your ass.


These are from the two most recent eLROY posts I can find. Mild examples of his style of writing and thinking.

I do agree that the quality of information here is terrific. And I don't just mean the poker information; I have enjoyed, and learned from many on the Other Topics forum, even those with whom I disagree, gentlemen such as HDPM and M. And I have met (in person and electronically) many truly wonderful people here such as Tommy Angelo, Lee Jones, John Cole and Rick Nebiolo, whose wisdom on matters of poker and, more importantly, life, have been a joy to me.


I undertstand the difficulties involved in "policing" all the forums. But it seems to me that Mr. Lansdale's comment about you and Abdul might profitably be taken to heart by both of you. (Basically, he said grow up.) Now Abdul is apparently gone, so too Lee Jones, backdoor and many others who contributed to that terrific quality of information you allude to, and we'll be poorer for their absence.

Hi Jimmy:


Chuck Weinstock, who is our web site administrator currently is tasked with making the kind of improvements that you suggest. Please email him with any specific suggestions.


Thanks,

Mason

And I have met... many truly wonderful people here such as Tommy Angelo, Lee Jones, John Cole and Rick Nebiolo,...have been a joy to me.


hmmmph

"But as I view it (i.e. IMHO), Abdul's actions did not justify booting him from 2+2. As a thought exercise, suppose his comments on rgp had been about Mike Caro instead?"


To set the record straight there was a post deleted on this forum that Abdul wrote that got him "banned." I find the indignation interesting as it seems that the implication is that somehow Abdul's message is being stiffled. If that the reason for the indignation that's just plain silly. He can make any post he wants to on RGP. Anybody that desires his feedback on hands can email him. Personally I don't think that deleting the post was the right response. I think it should have been left up and people could have judged it's veracity for themselves. It's clear to me that Mason and David were greatly offended by his post though. I can't even begin to tell you how I've benefitted from the limit hold'em forums. Reading the posts has a lot of value IMO. "Banning" Abdul means we don't get to read his posts and we don't get his feedback. It's our loss but there are other ways to get that information. Sorry I don't think a great wrong has been committed here. It's sad that these two can't resolve their differences. Life goes on but indignation over the fallout from a further episode in their feud seems to be misplaced.

and the net result is no one wins.

It's clear to me that Mason and David were greatly offended by his post


First Tom, I want to publicly thank you for your support. It is greatly appreciated.


If it had been only this one post, we would have simply deleted it. We had asked/warned Abdul to quit the insults on these forums and had made it clear to him that they had to stop. When this last post went up, I happened to read it right after it was posted and immediately called David. We agreed that he had had enough warnings and that it was time to take stronger action. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.


My belief is that if we didn't we would just see more and more of the type of posts that we are trying to keep off these forums, and it would also encourage copycats. Therefore the decision to ban Abdul was the only appropriate one to make.


Finally, we have told him that he can come back and post again if he promises to keep his posts to poker topics. If he does not come back, that will be his decision.

. . .for leaving out the name of a man I've had a ton of laughs with and who, after being with me a grand total of perhaps 20 minutes, trusted me with a rack of chips containing nearly a million dollars. He still doesn't realize, to this day, I stole 20 chips from the rack.


Anyway, he's a helluva nice guy, if a little gullible.


I miss you 3BB. Give me a few more weeks and I might come by to say hello.


Best regards,

Andy

As a privately owned company, 2+2 gets to make the rules for these forums. Do you really think the owners should allow someone to use their forums to make personal attacks against them? I would be disappointed if 2+2 banned posters who thoughtfully presented ideas which were unpopular or conflicted with S&M positions (provided the firebrand was not excessively redundant). However, I can't fault them for banning someone for making specific personal attacks.


I believe Abdul probably realized he was pressing his luck with such posts. If he cared about his continued participation on these forums, he could have restricted his personal attacks on Mason to rgp.


I will greatly miss Abdul's contributions to these forums. I was also beginning to appreciate the value of your input and hope you will reconsider.


-Mike

Due to the way I've been running, you might want to look for me at the 4-8 table. If you don't hurry, you might not find me at all!

This is a great forum! I learned how to play reading the posts here. It's great for poker. New players lurk here everyday.


I will miss Abdul and I think Dianne is a fine lady but this is Mason's ballgame. He started it and should be able to run it anyway he wants.

"He started it and should be able to run it anyway he wants."


Mike:


While I appreciate your comments, we just don't run this site "anyway he wants." We have published operating guidelines which we try to interpret accurately and enforce properly. You may want to look at our Terms & Conditions. You can see them my clicking on Terms & Conditions in the left hand column.


Thanks for your input and best wishes,

Mason

One more thing on this and I'm out on it. Abdul has had a running feud with Mason for a long time. I've read posts by Mason that were complementary to Abdul regarding his poker ability and knowledge at least several times. True some weren’t that way but they were never insulting and in the aggregate I think Mason has had many more positive things to say about Abdul than negative. To be honest I can't remember one post where Abdul was complementary of Mason. In fact I've read many insulting posts that he has made about Mason by Abdul. I get the impression that Abdul has some desire to keep it going because it is a way for him to promote himself and put himself on the same pedestal with Mason. I’m assuming that Mason and Abdul are highly successful players. Arguably Mason has had much more success as a well known poker pundit if you will; author; theorist; and publisher. By keeping this “feud” ongoing, Abdul gets to put himself at a level with Mason in areas that he has arguably not achieved nearly as much success in.

Yes, you are right, and that is why I was reluctant to take credit for originating the statement "AOL is for bitches," or stating it as my own. I don't use that word. Of course, some girls I know are insulted when I call them "girls," and "bitches" is just a sort of tongue-in-cheek way of saying the same thing.


Now, so far as the word ass - being another way of saying donkey or jack-ass - it is about as crass as I will usually permit myself to become, when I am feeling particularly sassy. I would be very unlikely to ever use it in "piece of ass" or even often to refer to the thing in your pants.


In general, everything I say is things I have heard other people say, cut and pasted. I guess, going back to when you were born, that is true of everybody. But I actually remember where I got most of my words and phrases. And I had a friend named Randy who was able to get unique effect only achievable through use of the word ass, which I think I'm going to stick with.


Plus, I think it was Butthead (Beavis) who always said "dumb-ass," and I get many of my lines and phrases from my favorite TV shows (like The Dukes of Hazzard). When it comes right down to it, "idiot" had been wron so thin and threadbare, and "ass" seems to have been rationed better, and so retains better verbal currency.


So far as the insults, well, when I come across sickeningly arrogant, touchy-feely people - girls in guys' bodies to my mind - I guess I just can't help myself. Yiiiicchhhh! They are in love with themselves. If they love other people, it is mostly...


YUCK!


eLROY

My fantasy game with Bob Stupak obviously can go no where, so I end my sabbatical from the 30/60 hold'em game at the Belligio. In that game the small blind asked if I chopped and when I said no, three people groaned and one said I was slowing the game.


Peer pressure to chop at the Hilton-Reno all through January. At the Mirage. At the Horseshoe, April and May. All of this pressure at 20/40 and above.


At the Mirage I experience soft playing, a wannabe 'pro' bitches at another player for over an hour, because she had not 'soft played' him on the river. I believe he thought no one was listening to him. He sees himself as a 'shark' waiting for a 'fish'. He chops and soft plays. He is the Baleen of the Belligio. Baleen are the long devices in a whale's jaw used to filter food from sea water. Even though he sees himself as top of the food chain, he is actually a passive filtering feeder. I think it possible that there are many like him. All that peer pressure to chop.


In that 30/60 game, the action rarely folded to the blinds and seldom a check raise. The game was full of 'sharks'.


So why did I put this post so completely out of context in this thread? Because I have seen variations of this thread over and over, and they are boring. Whereas, my subject matter is interesting and far from complete. I am collecting targeting data, looking for a targeting solution.