glutton for punishment

[dfscott]

I posted a while back about how bad I was sucking at NL SnGs (ITM = 28% ROI = -31% over 20 5+.50 and 6+.50 PS SnGs), despite having good success at limit play (5BB/HR over 18K hands). I decided to give it up for a while, for the sake of my sanity and my BR. Since then, my limit play has taken off and I've rebuilt my BR to a comfortable level.

Well, the irresistable siren call of the SnG is luring me again, so I'm diving back in, despite the fact that my BR may suffer (because despite my losses, I love the rush).

Anyway, I decided that at least I could analyze my play a bit and see if I could identify some problems. I'd posted several hands before and in most cases my play was ok. So I started looking in other areas. I've come up with two:

1) Folding pre-flop too much
I'm either not loosening up enough or not quick enough as the limits go up. I play VERY tight for the first 3 levels of blinds (only mid- high-pairs and AK early, any pairs and big suited cards in LP), but then loosen up at level 4 and beyond. However, I only loosen up a little: add AQ early, and will start playing middle suited connectors late. Is this not loose enough?

2) Not stealing enough
I will generally start stealing once I get around to 10BB. I steal only from the button, and generally with a hand that I wouldn't be too upset if it's called (pair, any A, or blackjack hand). I'm concerned that this isn't agressive enough -- should I be stealing sooner and/or with lesser hands?

Also, in the last two I played, I found myself to the left of the big stack. He started raising every hand, so I never had a chance to go for a steal -- how should I respond to that?

Thanks in advance for any advice and I'll keep you posted on the damage... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[eastbay]

You're trying to be too formulaic and play some kind of rigid strategy, it sounds like.

You steal only from the button? What kind of nonsense is that? You realize there's less inherent danger in stealing from the SB, right?

Also, the idea that you'd throw away, say AJs on the SB if folded to you at any point in the tournmant is preposterous.

Think.

eastbay

[dfscott]

You're probably right -- I am trying to lock it down into game theory, which is probably a mistake. I think I took AleoMagus' "Beating the 10+1 party" post too literally.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]

1) Folding pre-flop too much
I'm either not loosening up enough or not quick enough as the limits go up. I play VERY tight for the first 3 levels of blinds (only mid- high-pairs and AK early, any pairs and big suited cards in LP), but then loosen up at level 4 and beyond. However, I only loosen up a little: add AQ early, and will start playing middle suited connectors late. Is this not loose enough?


[/ QUOTE ]

In late position on the first level or two, I'll get in with more hands if it's cheap - Axs being a good one. If you can limp in for 15 with 6 players along with you this is great. I will also limp in with middle suited connectors with lots of limpers (some find this too loose). If you find that you're often too short-stacked, you may want to try adding a few hands pre-flop. Also perhaps look at your raising - do you open with a 3x bb raise if you're first in with big hands? Do you usually get called or just take down the blinds?

[ QUOTE ]

2) Not stealing enough
I will generally start stealing once I get around to 10BB. I steal only from the button, and generally with a hand that I wouldn't be too upset if it's called (pair, any A, or blackjack hand). I'm concerned that this isn't agressive enough -- should I be stealing sooner and/or with lesser hands?


[/ QUOTE ]

Generally I too only start stealing at the 10BB level unless the table is rather tight or I'm big stack. I also do it with hands that I would be upset if called. Any ace or king or a blackjack 20 hand is good from the small blind - infact if blind is tight, often any two will do it. If we're down to 4, similar hands from the button, and big aces, pairs 99 upwards from UTG. If I'm stealing, by definition I'm not looking to get called, and will usually be a dog.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, in the last two I played, I found myself to the left of the big stack. He started raising every hand, so I never had a chance to go for a steal -- how should I respond to that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he play tighter when facing a raise? Probably, big stack is playing correctly - bullying everyone on the bubble. It's a tricky situation. Get in their before him UTG if you think he plays tight when facing a raise (good players would). If he's pushing every hand, loosen your calling criteria, especially when the chips get low.

Also in this case I think it might be worth waiting it out if the other two are likely to go out very soon. Not 2+2 play, but sometimes I think sneaking ITM isn't a bad move when up against an aggressive big-stack.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
You steal only from the button? What kind of nonsense is that? You realize there's less inherent danger in stealing from the SB, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

I missed this the first time. I definitely steal from the SB, but rarely get the chance -- the button will generally take a stab if it's folded. If this happens and I hold AJs, I'd generally call -- is this too passive?

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
In late position on the first level or two, I'll get in with more hands if it's cheap - Axs being a good one. If you can limp in for 15 with 6 players along with you this is great. I will also limp in with middle suited connectors with lots of limpers (some find this too loose). If you find that you're often too short-stacked, you may want to try adding a few hands pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've started doing this, but I'm never sure what to do it raised a moderate amount. In limit, I'd just call -- would that be the right strategy here?

[ QUOTE ]
Also perhaps look at your raising - do you open with a 3x bb raise if you're first in with big hands? Do you usually get called or just take down the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost always enter for a 3BB raise first in with a playable hand. However, I do find that I usually just take down the blinds in that situation.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think he play tighter when facing a raise? Probably, big stack is playing correctly - bullying everyone on the bubble. It's a tricky situation. Get in their before him UTG if you think he plays tight when facing a raise (good players would). If he's pushing every hand, loosen your calling criteria, especially when the chips get low.

Also in this case I think it might be worth waiting it out if the other two are likely to go out very soon. Not 2+2 play, but sometimes I think sneaking ITM isn't a bad move when up against an aggressive big-stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played one last night and ran into this again. I noticed that they definitely tightened up. A re-raise pre-flop followed by a 1/2 pot bet on the flop often took it down. I'm not sure if this is +EV long-term, though.

I'm going to post a few hands from last night's SnG as well -- hopefully there will be a few obvious mistakes that I can learn from.

[holeplug]

It seems like your almost trying to memorize how to play these things and by doing so your making them much more difficult then they actually are. Just play good solid poker and you should do fine rather than trying to memorize what to play in each situation.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Just play good solid poker and you should do fine rather than trying to memorize what to play in each situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think part of my problem is that I'm a limit player, so I get sort of lost playing NL. I know the basic concepts, but not much more. I've read TPFAP -- should I grab a copy of Super System or some other NL book?

[holeplug]

I played limit for a bit before I started to focus on SNGs and never read any books (still haven't) on NL before I switched. I wouldn't buy another book if you already read TPFAP and just use these forums to improve your play. Of course I'm one cheap bastard and hate spending $ on anything /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[SeppDeitrich]

say you are in the sb with AJ, stack ~1500, blinds 50/100

action folds to the button who raises to say T300 this wouldn't be a bad time to push all your chips in.

If you do this a couple times, eventually you will pick up AA or KK and the button will be so pissed at you that he'll call your re-raise with cheese.

[SeppDeitrich]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
In late position on the first level or two, I'll get in with more hands if it's cheap - Axs being a good one. If you can limp in for 15 with 6 players along with you this is great. I will also limp in with middle suited connectors with lots of limpers (some find this too loose). If you find that you're often too short-stacked, you may want to try adding a few hands pre-flop.



I've started doing this, but I'm never sure what to do it raised a moderate amount. In limit, I'd just call -- would that be the right strategy here?


[/ QUOTE ]

When you limp with a marginal hand such as axs a suited connector or a small pair early in the tournament and it is raised behind you I would fold axs or the suited connector if the raise is 2x bb or more. I'm not folding because the raise is too expensive, I fold because i do not want to flop a draw and get bet out of the hand, or flop a draw and be forced to play it for alot of chips before i complete my hand. with small pairs on the other hand i would call a raise of about 3 bb since action on the flop is good for your hand.

[gergery]

TOP says that the chance you are bluffing should equal the pot odds you offer your opponents. It sounds from your above description that you are playing too tightly. If you find no one is giving you much action on your good hands, then I’d say you are not bluffing enough. I like bluffing from CO or late MP alittle better than button since less obvious, and will try to raise in LP with hands like 66 or 87s if I can get away with it since they are well disguised and have a chance to win outright.

And if bigstack is raising every hand, then I pick a hand that is a favorite vs. the top 67% of hands like A5 and play back hard at him. Often, he’ll toss a moderate holding like KJ if he means he can go on stealing the table blind.

--Greg