QQ hand 10-20 Hollywood Aurora

I am 3 off the BB and there is a straddle, I have QQ(suits unimportant), folded to me I make it three bets. Two cold callers to excellent player on the button who caps it(yes it is a cap in this room), the straddler calls as does everyone else.


Flop comes K-8-6, I bet the flop it is folded tobutton who calls and the straddler calls. The straddler could have any two cards at this point. I have the button on a pocket pair(I am nearly 100% sure he does not have a King)


Turn is another K...I bet it out, the button raises, the other player folds...do you fold, call, or raise?


Results to follow. This may seem to be an easy one, but I would like to hear thoughts.


Swiss Cheese

I made the bone head move and just called...river was a blank and we checked it down. He took the pot with AA. I think that I clearly should have raised or folded in this situation. I will read your comments thanks so much.


Swiss Cheese

swiss cheese,


I haven’t peeked of course.


First of all the button capper knows your pre flop reraise of the straddle means less strength then average so his cap can and should be made with a wider range of hands than normal.


When the second king comes on the turn the excellent capper might figure this lessens the chance you have a king. So he could get aggressive here, especially since his opponents have been reduced to two by the flop bets. He might raise as a bluff or with a hand such as TT, JJ, AA as well as the king.


With over 14 big bets in the pot at the time of your decision, you won't get a better hand to fold by reraising. However, it still might have merit if you think he will just call a reraise with AK or KQ since you would like to punish a worse pair such as JJ or TT or a bluff with AQ and have to call his river bet (if you just call the turn) anyway. Unfortunately, you will see the better hand a lot more then the worse pair or bluff. So it seems to me that it is close between calling and reraising (folding is insane).


If you decide to call you must of course call the river (unless a queen comes - then go for the checkraise). If you decide to reraise the turn and are raised again you must call and hope for a river queen. Even when you miss spiking your queen you probably need to call the river since an excellent player could be making a big move on such a big pot.


Regards,


Rick

swiss cheese,


Folding is wrong. Even if you saw his aces you almost have odds to river a queen. So with doubt you must at least call but reraising is an option (against the entire range of hands he could have) although it probably would not have folded aces since the pot is just too big.


Regards,


Rick

I'm not very experienced at 10-20 and higher. but i will offer this.


it seems like the excellent player has to give you credit for having something worth taking against the straddler. AK is pretty likely, and a common raising hand. he caps it, meaning you have to give him credit for either probably a pair, or AK. pair probably 88 and up is most likely, i'd be wary of QQ,KK,AA. flop, you bet, he just calls. he's either got a vulnerable hand wanting to minimize the money going into the pot so the raise on the turn gives worse odds to callers (although a preflop cap doesn't really help that move much...), or he has a monster, and is slowplaying. im not sure which one he thinks this is. turn, as he is a very good player, he should probably give you credit for a decent holding to be betting this far into the hand, after the K paired. which means he is in the same raise/fold spot as you. he figures it's possible you don't have a K, and have to keep betting, so he is probably best. if not, he may be willing to fold to a reraise, or call, looking for an A on the river. calling here is not you rbest play, because you've just told him you don't have a K, in which case, he's golden, as he's got an overpair. rais or fold here, definitely. if you reraise, you have to be willing to fire on the river as well. tough one, though. but if he is as excellent as you say he is, he may be willing to laydown AA on the river.

Haven't looked either

Quick assessment:

"100% sure he doesn't have a king" - well then raise on the turn. If you get re-rasied maybe you read is off. Then you need (probably) a queen on the river to win. If no re-raise then bet on the river.

call me crazy but I check and call the turn here.

Swiss-


I haven't read your results or the other responses yet, but my first thought is that if he truly is an excellent player it would be a mistake to become 100% sure of anything.


My second thought is that it's a mistake to re-raise. There's almost no chance he has a naked ace (though I wouldn't be 100% sure /images/smile.gif). There's also very little chance you're gonna get him to lay down a better hand. The pot's just too big at this point. An excellent player might make this raise with JJ or TT. So I think you can call, but only if you think he'd check the river with these hands. Otherwise, you're making a two big bet decision and it's probably best to fold.


btw- I don't think it's a crime to check QQ on the turn here, even though you might want to call if the button bets.

"Folding is wrong. Even if you saw his aces you almost have odds to river a queen."


Rick-


Are you sure you got the pot odds correct? Why would getting 10 to 1, give swiss the odds to hit a two outer?


Also, I don't see the re-raise as being a strong option. While his opponent might fold JJ or TT, he is not going to lay down any hand that beats swiss such as AA,AK,or KK. Granted, the pot is probably big enough to where you don't mind him folding a 2 outer, but I just don't see much reason to re-raise here. I'd be curious to get further thoughts from you on this... Thanks.


Kevin

I apologize. I'm tired and my brain is all muddled from playing in my first stud-8 game.


I missed the two cold callers between swiss and the button. Now I get 15 to 1 which makes it much closer, but still a little short of trying to spike a 2 outer. IMO-

Kevin,


I was just about to post an afterthought then I saw your post so I’ll try to do both.


Me before: "Folding is wrong. Even if you saw his aces you almost have odds to river a queen."


Kevin: “Rick - Are you sure you got the pot odds correct? Why would getting 10 to 1, give swiss the odds to hit a two outer?”


Me again: It’s better then 10 to 1 but I agree it isn’t enough to call in an effort to catch up on that alone. Anyway, I have 20 small bets plus the small blind pre flop (five players times four bets) and 3 small bets on the flop = 11.5 big bets. On the turn swiss cheese has bet and it is raised so he is looking at 14.5 big bets on a 22 to 1 shot. If course if he saw the aces and knew a reraise would not get his opponent to fold them then he is short on odds (even with the river bet he should collect) and he should fold on the turn.


Anyway, what I should have said is that combine doubt that you are beat with the fact you have about 2/3 of the odds needed to catch up if you are behind meant folding is wrong.


Kevin: “Also, I don't see the re-raise as being a strong option. While his opponent might fold JJ or TT, he is not going to lay down any hand that beats swiss such as AA,AK,or KK. Granted, the pot is probably big enough to where you don't mind him folding a 2 outer, but I just don't see much reason to re-raise here. I'd be curious to get further thoughts from you on this... “


Me again: Well he might have laid down the aces to a reraise and river bet. And you would actually want him to call a turn reraise with JJ or TT since he would be just short of odds to spike his full (including two river bets collected). You also want to punish his bluffs with an ace high (that would probably fold after your reraise and you would want this since he has three outs).


I also believe you have to turn the aggressive knob on “high” when you are head up in a pot with a tremendous amount of dead money. But I agree it isn’t my play at the table (I’m just not that fast a thinker) but it is something I’m trying to work on offline. I still think a reraise should be considered and hope we get more to jump in.


Before starting this post I was going to just mention that swiss cheese should not eliminate a king as a possible holding on the flop. Then I saw your post and it’s twenty minutes later /images/wink.gif.


Regards,


Rick

Kevin,


No problem. I posted my response just a second ago and didn't see this but it has some other thoughts anyway.


Regards,


Rick

Yes, I agree that once swiss bets the turn (and gets raised) the combined chance he may have the best hand along with being 2/3 of the way there odds-wise to spike a queen, make folding wrong. I just question what's wrong with simply checking QQ in the first place. It's unlikely this guy has AQ or AX and more likely he either has a king, AA, or pocket pair like JJ and TT. My point is, that there are not many cards that can hurt swiss (against the button), since he's holding QQ and is either way ahead or way behind. I don't like leaving the 3rd player in, but if he's got a pair of eights with 5 outs I'm still not sure it's worth costing yourself 2 big bets in the process to get him out.


As far as re-raising, much of the same thing applies. I still don't see the "why" in it? You'll probably get JJ or TT to fold, but there's no way I'm laying down AA (if I'm the button) or any king to a re-raise with a pot this size. I'm not an excellent player, but I don't think an excellent player would either. So again, why re-raise? Sorry if I'm being slow to understand this Rick.

My point is, that there are not many cards that can hurt swiss (against the button), since he's holding QQ and is either way ahead or way behind. I don't like leaving the 3rd player in, but if he's got a pair of eights with 5 outs I'm still not sure it's worth costing yourself 2 big bets in the process to get him out.


K-8-6--K


QQ


If he has only a pair of 8's or 6's he has 2 outs unless he has exactly A8 or A6. I do agree with your advice as this makes it even more correct IMHO.

Kevin,


Believe me, I'm not confident obout the reraise and don't think I would do this at the table. But I considered it as a viable option at home and wanted to throw it out for comment.


Regards,


Rick

Yes. Sorry. 2 outs. This means a combined 4 outs against QQ (assuming QQ is ahead and the button has a pocket pair other than AA or KK).

swiss cheese


First of all, the fact that you're still thinking about the hand that took place 5 days ago and posting is an excellent sign that you're on the way to become an expert, if you aren't there yet :-)


I think this is what happened...


Flop:


SC betting into K high flop seems suspicious to EP because SC should be afraid of EP having AA, KK or AK.


Ep is thinking, "Why doesn't he check-raise if he has a K? Or is he testing his under-pair, hoping I have AQ, JJ or TT? I'm just going to call. This is a capped multi-way pot, so I have to narrow the field by turn raise. I still think I have the best hand as SC won't bet a set or two pair like that."


Turn:


K comes on the turn, and SC bets. That should scare EP, but he fortunatelly picks up a tell taht he doesn't have a K. Although there isn't enough money for SC to spike a two-outer, EP doens't mind him folding here. Plus, he has to narrow the field, so EP raises.


SC thinks for hours (maybe not that long.) He calls. Now EP becomes a little insecure about his hand. "Maybe he has a K but didn't re-raise because he's afraid of a better K or even a full house." EP starts to think weak. EP knows that SC has a tendency to thinks for a while and just call with a pretty good hand.


River blanked, SC checks and EP is thinking, "I'm getting beat all day today. I don't care an extra bet on the river. I just want to show my hand and win the pot. I've been betting someone's hand and missing bets all day. I rather miss a bet and win a pot than bet and lose." EP misses a bet.


p.s. ...are you sure he's an excellent player because I heard he's broke...


Soh (broke)