flop play: deceptive or unnecessary

I have KQd in the SB. 2 loose early position players limp. I raise in the SB. The BB calls, and we see the flop 4 handed.


The flop is twotone: Kh, 8c, 3h. With an 8 bet pot and 4 people, in early position I go for the checkraise to force some people out. The BB bets, but the 2 limpers fold. The checkraise is no longer necessary to force the limpers out, and I got confused. Should I still checkraise? I should still have the best hand. I believe the main consideration is value bet vs. deception.


I raised preflop from the SB, so I should have a premium hand or a suited connector. BB bet into 4 people, so he as well should have something. Together, an observant opponent should conclude that when I checkraise, I am extremely likely to have at least a pair of kings with a good (and better than his) kicker. I virtually announce my hand.


Though I did just call at the table half out of confusion and half out of instinct, I've thought about it a lot and I note:

-- If he has a bad king, he should fold to a checkraise and I miss an opportunity at 2 BB on a 3 outer.

-- If he has a flush draw, checkraising gains 2/3 a SB

-- If he has eights, then my raise builds the pot so that his middle pair odds to call on the flop AND the turn

-- I save money if he has 88 or 33 (or AK?, or K8?)


In practice:

Does a bad king call anyway?

Do I do better to bet my hand, so that the later rounds are easier for me to play: in the hand, I called and the turn was a 7s. I bet and got raised. Now I can’t tell if my opponent is taking a shot at me.


Dan

flop: Kh, 8c, 3h

turn: 7s


I bet, get raised, and call.


river: 2c. I check, opp bets, I call. My opponent shows KTs, and I win.


It appears the stop and go made my opponent overbet his hand. But, if I did c/r the flop, I suspect that he would have called to the river anyway. Also, with a good sized pot maybe I don't want to be screwing around. I'm still undecided if one play is better or not, so maybe the thing to do is use this as a chance to mix up my play.

I like your raise with KQs against 2 limpers preflop, but I would bet out on this flop. Usually, once I let the cat out of the bag by showing strength from an early position, I'm going to drive the betting until I encounter resistance. This will often make your opponents play more honestly (which you want when you have crappy position), since they will have some idea you have a real hand and should be less liable to misread you for something less and try to mess with you. Sometimes I will go for a check raise on the flop after I raised preflop from a blind, but often that is when I have a big overpair or hit the flop with AK (which balances somewhat those times I check the flop after raising preflop with a medium pair or suited connector from the blinds).


Against a typical opponent, 2 shows of strength postflop should mean you need better than 1 pair to win. You have somewhat muddled this up here by checking the flop, which makes it less likely his bet on the flop was a real show of strength. But given your preflop raise, he should be somewhat leery of a K high flop and probably had something to bet out there. So unless this guy is more tricky or aggressive than usual, you should figure that you are behind when he raises the turn. You have favorable odds to continue with 8BB already in the pot, but you need to improve to feel good about calling him down on the river (or possibly going for a check raise).


In response to your questions, yes I think a bad king calls your check raise on the flop anyway (and has odds to do so if you have AA), but should often fold on the turn (barring improvement) if he plays sensibly. And yes, I think you would do better to bet out on the flop (which probably nets you extra bets from a bad king), or to follow through with your plan to check raise and see if he was committed to his first bet. The way you played it, he can easily misread you for something like QQ-TT, which makes his turn raise harder to read, as you discovered. It's hard enough to play from early position without giving your opponents extra reasons to screw around with you.